Lloyd Webber vs. Puccini- Page 4

[CATSNYrevival]

Posted: 9/6/11 at 1:51am

Just listened to Bolero. I hear the Memory bit. Am I crazy or do I also hear a touch of "Lovely" from A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum?

[TimesSquareRegular]

Posted: 9/6/11 at 9:10am

This one had more than just a few bars of music "borrowed" :

"Be a Clown" is a song written by Cole Porter for the 1948 film The Pirate. The song was first performed by Judy Garland and Gene Kelly in the film The Pirate.

The song was featured in an episode of Land of the Giants and also in the 2004 film De-Lovely.

The song "Make 'Em Laugh" (by Nacio Herb Brown and Arthur Freed) in the film Singin' in the Rain was largely plagiarized from "Be a Clown"[1] although Cole Porter did not make a complaint. Both films were MGM productions.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 9/6/11 at 9:31am

I don't understand. They used the word "plagiarized" without the name "Lloyd Webber". Has no one told them the rules?

[sparrman]

Posted: 9/6/11 at 9:39am

"You can't have it both ways, pal. They are the exact same six notes - if you want to play they are different rhythmically, then all the other examples cited here go in the toilet. Memory is NOTHING like Bolero in feel, tempo, or rhythm, and yet apparently it's okay to cite that ridiculous example, right?"

Except that I didn't cite that example. Pal.

A "note", as I believe you know, is made up of many qualities, most importantly pitch and duration. I really don't have a horse in this race, but it seems to me a string of six pitches that happen to be identical from one song to the next aren't enough to justify a charge of "plagiarism". Admittedly, those six pitches also have in common that they are a discrete phrase at the very beginning of the song. But I think it's important that they don't "do" the same thing from one song to the next. Whereas the Webber/Puccini phrase that inspired this thread DOES "do" the same thing in both instances, even though there may be rhythmic differences there as well.

However plagiarism cases are decided, it's clearly a highly subjective matter.

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 9/6/11 at 11:44am

There is a difference between "winking" at an audience with a blatantly interpolated classic or pop melody as a stunt or cameo, on the one hand, and inentional plagiarism or unintentional usurpation, intended to impress the audience (or at least some of them) as an original creation, on the other. Its challenging - though not impossible - to argue that Webber's borrowing from La Fanciulla, is a "wink" at the audience. In contrast, Sondheim, the great puzzlemeister, was obviously engaged in a "wink."

This is not the only occasion where Webber was highly influenced, to put it mildly, by Puccini.

OK, now I'm going to be accused of being a Webber-hater. I assure you I'm not. Nor do I really have any problem with plagiarism in moderation, in any form. As long as the source is well known such as the "borrowing" is evident.

Updated On: 9/6/11 at 11:44 AM

[best12bars]

Posted: 9/6/11 at 11:51am

I don't know if the courts would support a "winking" theory, or if they give passes to celebrities whose "obvious" intentions are a "wink," whether they're good at puzzles or not.

Some of the strangest posts here. Seriously.

Oh ... and WEBBER HATER!!! There, feel better?

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 9/6/11 at 12:08pm

This is not the only occasion where Webber was highly influenced, to put it mildly, by Puccini.

I read something about his Requiem being tied to Puccini, but I couldn't find anything specific. But that's the only other instance I've heard about. No doubt, people will find a way to put some of his notes together and accuse him of whatever. When we get to the point of accusing him of ripping off the I-IV-V-I chord progression at the end of any given song, let me know. I really want to see how that pans out.

[best12bars]

Posted: 9/6/11 at 12:28pm

I hear he's legally changing his name to Andrew Pucclloyd Iniwebber.

Oh, wait, that's LORD Andrew Pucclloyd Iniwebber.

[themysteriousgrowl]

Posted: 9/6/11 at 12:29pm

Mister Matt is correct. Billy Crystal brought attention to this in the 1995 film "Forget Paris." Discussion begins and ends there.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 9/6/11 at 12:48pm

I love that movie. The pigeon scene is hilarious.

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 9/6/11 at 12:52pm

best 12, the courts' wouldn't care as long as the "wink" was to something in the "public domain," and my analysis was in response to those whose concerns were not about the legal ("public domain") versus the ethical.

[best12bars]

Posted: 9/6/11 at 12:54pm

I own I-IV-V-I, so Andy Webber better start paying me now.

I also own I-vi-IV-V. So take that, 90 percent of all 1950s ballads!!!

And show me the money, honey. I want retribution, and I'm pretty good at puzzles, too.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 9/6/11 at 1:09pm

I own I-IV-V-I, so Andy Webber better start paying me now.

Not to mention the rest of the world. You'd be the richest man on earth.

[best12bars]

Posted: 9/6/11 at 1:12pm

No, it's just Andy. He's the only one who steals.

At least according to this thread.

By the way, I've trademarked the comma.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 9/6/11 at 1:16pm

No, it's just Andy. He's the only one who steals.

See, I forgot already! Thank God for true musical theatre aficiondos (aficionadi?) to remind me of the simplest facts.

In other news, I was also once told Sunrise, Sunset from Fiddler has no chorus. Discuss.

Updated On: 9/6/11 at 01:16 PM

[best12bars]

Posted: 9/6/11 at 1:24pm

"Sunrise, Sunset" IS the chorus. "Is this the little girl ..." is the verse.

People, really!

Oh, by the way, here's Star Wars' Darth Vader theme ... jump to 1:25.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jmk5frp6-3Q&feature=related

And who knew it was written in 1914? John Williams starts his compositions early, way before production begins. Before his own birth, actually. Now that's a man who plans ahead.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 9/6/11 at 1:40pm

See, that's what I said, but this guy insisted the chorus was simply a different verse. He tried to school me on music theory and claimed the song has no chorus. I didn't care because I have the LP personally autographed by Jerry Bock to me containing an inside joke regarding the new musical he composed that we were working on. So suck it, music theory dude.

And I love The Planets by John Williams! I always thought it would make an excellent subject for a Fantasia-esque Disney animated film along with Hans Zimmer's Pictures at an Exhibition.

[best12bars]

Posted: 9/6/11 at 1:45pm

It was initially planned for Fantasia, but they scrapped the idea. It came up again for Fantasia 2000 and was scrapped again.

That's awesome about Jerry Bock! Very cool.

Hey, maybe your friend saw a really low-budget production of Fiddler where they hired no chorus members. If that were the case, "Sunrise, Sunset" would have no chorus.

Otherwise, musically, yes, it does.

Updated On: 9/6/11 at 01:45 PM

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 9/6/11 at 1:53pm

I can't imagine scrapping The Planets. The music is so expressive and vivid and the opportunity for capturing it with visuals is so ripe with creativity. Not to mention pairing it with some info not only on the planets themselves, but the Roman gods for which the planets (and the musical movements) were named. It's an educational two-fer.

[best12bars]

Posted: 9/6/11 at 2:00pm

Since the first Fantasia already had planets (the Rite of Spring) and mythical gods (Beethoven's Sixth), they probably didn't need it.

For the second one, who knows? It didn't make the final cut. It was probably voted out by viewers. Maybe it couldn't handle the country medley or it riffed too much.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 9/6/11 at 2:14pm

Undoubtably, everyone realized it was ripping off The Empire Strikes Back and demanded a lawsuit.