In praise of THE FANTASTICKS OC recording- Page 2

[John Adams]

Posted: 8/27/16 at 9:50am

Thanks for this thread, QueenAlice!

I have both the original and the 2006 recordings. I like the 2006 version because it contains additional dialogue, and the harp is more prominent in the accompaniment.

I prefer the characterizations on the original cast recording, however - the original Matt and Luisa especially. On the 2006 recording, Matt and Luisa sound too emotionally mature, right from the beginning of the show. The originals display a perfect dose of adolescent egocentrism at the start, and grow into more mature characters via their trails, tribulations and life lessons.

As for It Depends on What You Pay, I think that if the currently modified lyrics were the ones I had been weaned on all these years, I'd find absolutely no fault.

After all, the song is not about rape. Right from its introduction in the show, it's very clear that there is never going to be a rape. The song is  about salesmanship and getting top dollar for an extremely absurd product that no one would/should ever pay for. El Gallo is preying on the fathers' needs.

I prefer the use of the word "rape" in the lyrics for those two reasons, and I like the extreme absurdity. If I had never been exposed to the extreme choice, and had only known the updated lyrics (the ones from the 2006 recording), I don't think I would be missing anything, though. The song is still about preying on "consumers" and salesmanship of an absurd product.

[QueenAlice]

Posted: 8/27/16 at 11:35am

AfterEight -- I appreciate the shows you cite - but, and perhaps I'm wrong, my point is that I don't believe THE FANTASTICKS (nor the shows you cite) were originally geared toward a 'family audience' because I don't really think such a thing really existed for the downtown theatre market in that era.  Before the FANTASTICKS you had THE THREE PENNY OPERA as the first long running Off Broadway show.  Greenwich Village in 1960 was (by most historic recollections) beatnik central: strange and dirty and certainly not the place most families would go for an outing.  It was however the perfect place for a show like the FANTASTICKS to open, and I suspect most original audiences completely understood the context of the word "rape" as it was used in the play and it wasn't an issue.

I also am all for recognizing the problem and attempting to create a solution. Aside from being a purist (which I am -- sue me, but I was disappointed when I just looked at the website and saw that this year they've completely overhauled Luisa's original costume) -- I just don't think the revised lyrics Jones created are good.  So to me the changes - as they now are - simply becomes a compromise to the art.

I think its interesting that producer Lore Note refused Jone's request to change the lyrics during the original run. I suspect he reasoned the situation much as I am.

[After Eight]

Posted: 8/27/16 at 8:25pm

"perhaps I'm wrong"

Unthinkable!

 "Greenwich Village in 1960 was (by most historic recollections) beatnik central: strange and dirty and certainly not the place most families would go for an outing."

Gee, I wonder how all the families who went to see Little Mary Sunshine, Leave It to Jane, and yes, The Fantasticks -- all in violation of your after-the-fact decree-- managed to escape all those horrifying beatniks and return home safely from the strange and dirty wilds of Greenwich Village!

 "It was however the perfect place for a show like the FANTASTICKS to open,"

Uh, why would the beatnik-ridden, strange and dirty locale of The Village be the perfect place for this musical to open?

"and I suspect most original audiences completely understood the context of the word "rape" as it was used in the play and it wasn't an issue."

Then there would have been no reason for anyone to be shocked, jarred, or taken out of the moment, all of which you applaud the show for.

It never ceases to amaze how people can speak with such authority on shows they never saw, events they never witnessed, places they never visited, and eras they never lived through. First-hand observation is a far better gauge of reality than any second-hand account in a book.

Clearly, humility, as a concept, is dead.
 

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 8/27/16 at 8:44pm

After Eight said: ""Any other fans?"

 

You can count me among them.

 

"

I would never expect to agree with A8 but absolutely. 

[Someone in a Tree2]

Posted: 8/27/16 at 9:18pm

THE FANTASTICKS was the first show staged at the summer stock theater the seasons I worked there as tech director in 1976 and 1977. The director was Betsy Joslyn who had played Luisa in the New York company for years. We felt we were being directed by someone who would really know how the show should be played, and Betsy was a complete sweetheart to boot. Of course in 1976 rape meant what it does today. I suspect the same would have been true in 1960. Regardless, the song went on as written, and there was no horror on the faces of those New Hampshire theater goers as far as I could tell. We all simply understand the context of the song and the intention of its authors. There was no reason to apologize for the darkness in the words, and I'm sorry to hear Tom Jones felt there was anything to rewrite later on. 

Updated On: 8/27/16 at 09:18 PM

[Mr. Nowack]

Posted: 8/27/16 at 9:32pm

It seems that poor Tom Jones has had a lot of regret regarding material he's written.

Granted I wasn't around in 1959 but I never got the feeling shows like LITTLE MARY SUNSHINE or LEAVE IT TO JANE would have been marketed to the family crowds. Were any musicals at all marketed as "family fare" in those days??

[Theater_Nerd]

Posted: 8/28/16 at 2:49am

The Fantasticks is very much a classic - - - what longevity for such a beautiful show. I recently watched the 1964 television adaptation starring John Davidson and Susan Watson. Sublime.

[John Adams]

Posted: 8/28/16 at 10:32am

Theater_Nerd said: "The Fantasticks is very much a classic - - - what longevity for such a beautiful show. I recently watched the 1964 television adaptation starring John Davidson and Susan Watson. Sublime."

I didn't care for this as much as you, but it's better than the 1995 movie version. Starring Ricardo Mahn-TAHL-bahn:

 

[Mr. Nowack]

Posted: 8/28/16 at 1:50pm

Susan Watson famously chose the role of Kim McAfee on Broadway in BYE BYE BIRDIE over Luisa Off-Broadway in the FANTASTICKS, a role she had originated in whatever the previous production was. (I think she later married Tom Jones and starred in a number of Jones/Schmidt works) Part of me wishes she was on the OC, but Rita Gardner is still excellent.

The TV version also had full orchestrations done up by Phil Lang. Although the harp and piano arrangements are absolutely perfect, I would love to hear a recording in high fidelity with those charts.

[QueenAlice]

Posted: 8/28/16 at 11:41pm

JohnAdams -- Thank you for posting that link to the Hallmark Hall of Fame version -- what a fun peculiarity! I really hope someday the NYC production is filmed for release. It would be a natural for a live stream broadcast.

[Dollypop]

Posted: 8/29/16 at 11:09am

John Davidson appeared in the current production of The Fantasticks a few years ago: once as the Old Actor and once as Bellomy. When I interviewed him for BWW he mentioned that the authors felt the Hallmark production was the finest representation of the show. I don't know if I agree.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 8/29/16 at 5:17pm

 

Jerry Orbach, 22 years later.

 

 

Updated On: 8/29/16 at 05:17 PM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 8/29/16 at 8:04pm

I don't know if this was ever decided above or not, but as someone who remembers 1960: the word "rape" meant more or less what it means today. (The concept of "date rape" was less well known and most people associated the word with assault by a stranger. In many states, it was legally impossible for a man to rape his wife.)

But audiences figured out, consciously or not, that "rape" in the show means the older definition of "abduction". There's nothing in the libretto to suggest Luisa will be sexually abused.