Eponine Cast as a Guy! - Page 2

[Islander_fan]

Posted: 4/26/17 at 11:58am

henrikegerman said: "As long as there are no changes to the text, what exactly would make this illegal?  

Also, gender and sexuality being fluid in life, why not on stage?  And why any more or less fluid than ethnicity or color?

Not that I'm nec. in love with this particular idea.  The desperate queer man tragically in love with a straight boy cliche doesn't thrill me as a reimagining of Eponine.
Now a female Marius loved in return by a female Cosette but desperately adored by a male Eponine.....  not that I'm seriously suggesting it, but it would be much more intriguing and, truer to the spirit of Les Mis, far more radical and empowering. 

 

 

It's against the law because it's an alteration period. It has nothing to do with being gender fluid in this day and age. If MTI says that the role is played by a female then the role has to be played by a female. It's as simple as that. I'd bet that this production made this alteration without getting permission from MTI, hence it being illegal.  Are there local productions of snows that local companies alter after getting rights by MTI? You bet there are. But it's like the old expression about jumping off the Empire State Building. Just because everyone else does it  doesn't mean that you have to/can/should. 

 

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 4/26/17 at 12:06pm

^I'm not suggesting that license holders could never be able to require that certain roles be played by - or, more to the point here, even "as" - a particular gender, though I'd be surprised if such a demand is ordinarily specified in the licensing agreement.  Do you have information that it routinely is, Islander_fan?   

Doesn't this, absent any textual change (and there appears to be none here), really come down to three potential alterations from a norm: casting, costuming, and, perhaps, vocal range?  I'd be interested to hear which of these departures from the norm might arguably be considered a contractual breach by the licensee, and why.

Updated On: 4/26/17 at 12:06 PM

[Liza's Headband]

Posted: 4/26/17 at 12:22pm

I'll repeat it for the 80th time to ensure there is no inaccurate information being thrown around on a public message board, wherein someone else who doesn't know better thinks they would be in the clear:  it is illegal to change the gender of a role as it specifically alters the intention of the authors' original work product. The gender can only be changed if it's explicitly permitted within the licensing materials. Beyond that, you must contact the dramatic licensing agency to get prior written approval. 

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 4/26/17 at 12:44pm

^thank you, Liza's and Islander, you appear to be correct.  And it appears that licensing agreements often do have specific protective language.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4667355

Still, this raises very interesting questions.  Including what are the rules of compliance when companies want to cast actors with ambiguous or transitioning gender identity.

[dramamama611]

Posted: 4/26/17 at 2:27pm

That becomes the company's problem...at this time.   At some point, I would expect for language to catch up and take that into consideration.

The funny thing, you aren't even suppose to let a female play a male's part AS a male....although in community theaters and many high schools its done and never a word is questioned.  Today with ambiguous and transitioning identity, that actually becomes MORE questionable.

[fashionguru_23]

Posted: 4/26/17 at 2:44pm

I ask this next question with the utmost respect: how is changing the gender wrong vs. changing the ethnicity of a character (i.e. Audra McDonald as Carrie in Carousel, etc.) I feel like this could change the intent somehow?

It makes me think of last week's Gilbert Godfried podcast, where the producers of "Barefoot in the Park" asked him to straighten his hair, because he looked "Jewish". Neil Simon and the producers didn't want the play to be about a "Jewish" couple, just an "American" couple.

[Liza's Headband]

Posted: 4/26/17 at 3:28pm

fashionguru_23 said: "I ask this next question with the utmost respect: how is changing the gender wrong vs. changing the ethnicity of a character (i.e. Audra McDonald as Carrie in Carousel, etc.) I feel like this could change the intent somehow?

It makes me think of last week's Gilbert Godfried podcast, where the producers of "Barefoot in the Park" asked him to straighten his hair, because he looked "Jewish". Neil Simon and the producers didn't want the play to be about a "Jewish" couple, just an "American" couple."

 

I think it's a very gray area and tough to sort through in most cases. Of course, you have the obvious shows where it's an outright distortion of the authors' original intent: HAIRSPRAY, SHOW BOAT, HAIR, FINIAN'S RAINBOW and more (just to name a few). But true, genuine "colorblind casting" isn't really accounted for and I think it's ultimately at the discretion of the licensee to make a reasonable judgement call. It's tough - there's no question. But not as much with genders, unless we're jumping outside of the binary world. 

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 4/26/17 at 3:34pm

Thanks, fashionguru, for asking the elephant in the room question that warrants serious and respectful consideration.  

Perhaps while much of the theatre community likes to think of itself as progressive when it comes to issues of ethnicity in casting, it has not advanced as far with respect to similar issues gender.  

On the other hand, it could be argued by some that gender identity, unlike ethnic identity, is a strong attribute of almost all characters in all plays and so ethnic and gender casting issues are not exactly parallel.  That sexual and gender identifications and conflicts are dramatically significant in almost all plays in a way that ethnic identifications are not.

It's a conversation well worth having and having respectfully.

But it's also worthwhile  to keep in mind that we are talking about a matrix of casting decisions here (not to suggest there"s anything nec. objectionable about any of them).  

Casting an actor of one gender identity as a character of another is simply different than casting that actor with the intention of changing the gender identity of the character.  Just as, for example, it's different to cast a black actress (perhaps along with other non-Euro castmembers, or for that matter an all non-Euro company) in Mother Courage and to cast Mother Courage with an all or predominately black cast for a production set in the present day Congo (to reference one fairly well known example).  

And of course there's the additional factor, with respect to works under license, of whether the atypical casting - for lack of an ideal phrase - or alteration in setting is done with or without the permission of the licensor.

Liza's said "But not as much with genders, unless we're jumping outside of the binary world."

I think what many of us are interested in when it comes to these kinds of gender casting issues, is exactly breaking down perceived chains of that binary world (if not nec. jumping outside of it).. 
 

Updated On: 4/26/17 at 03:34 PM

[bk]

Posted: 4/26/17 at 3:45pm

Liza's Headband said: "MyLife seems spot on here. I don't know how any of this could possibly be deemed illegal. MTI doesn't have a say over casting choices. The only thing they would get involved with is unapproved changes being made to the script. If the character was still billed as "Eponine" and no lyrics/dialogue was altered, then everything is fine

 

Again, 100% incorrect. Feel free to reach out to any dramatic licensing agency and confirm as much. 

 

"

Oh, but everyone here is an expert and KNOWS.  Not.  But they'd rather act like they know rather than actually do the tiny bit of research that would tell them that it is completely illegal to make a change like this without approval.  You know, do Les Miz, not some wet dream of some "creative" in a community theater.  I wonder if any of the spreaders of the misinformation had actually written something that was available for licensing, and then watched someone completely subvert it to their own purposes.

[bk]

Posted: 4/26/17 at 3:49pm

fashionguru_23 said: "I ask this next question with the utmost respect: how is changing the gender wrong vs. changing the ethnicity of a character (i.e. Audra McDonald as Carrie in Carousel, etc.) I feel like this could change the intent somehow?

It makes me think of last week's Gilbert Godfried podcast, where the producers of "Barefoot in the Park" asked him to straighten his hair, because he looked "Jewish". Neil Simon and the producers didn't want the play to be about a "Jewish" couple, just an "American" couple.

 

"

The Audra in Carousel issue is simple and it's the entire point here:  THEY HAD THE PERMISSION OF THE RIGHTS HOLDERS TO DO IT.  This community theater does not unless they sought permission and were granted permission, which I think we all know didn't happen.  

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 4/26/17 at 4:03pm

^that may well have been true in the case of that Carousel revival, but surely you are not suggesting that at the present time a company generally needs specific permission from a licensor before casting a black actress in a role like Carrie Pipperidge (a role that has nothing significant to do with ethnicity in a show that has nothing significant to do with it)?

Accordingly, fashionguru's question remains one well worth discussing.

Updated On: 4/26/17 at 04:03 PM

[Liza's Headband]

Posted: 4/26/17 at 5:14pm

Oh, but everyone here is an expert and KNOWS.  Not.  But they'd rather act like they know rather than actually do the tiny bit of research that would tell them that it is completely illegal to make a change like this without approval.  You know, do Les Miz, not some wet dream of some "creative" in a community theater.  I wonder if any of the spreaders of the misinformation had actually written something that was available for licensing, and then watched someone completely subvert it to their own purposes.

 

Yes, BK. Preach!!!  xo

[Islander_fan]

Posted: 4/26/17 at 6:11pm

henrikegerman

 

Yes, regardless of whether or not a black actress playing a role like Carrie doesn't really take away anything from the show, you still have to ask for permission. When licensing a show, the creative staff can say that the role must be played by someone with a particular ethnic background. There was a college production of the play The Mountaintop at Kent State. The Playwright,Katori Hall was shocked to find out that the person cast as MLK was white. She then quickly then altered the rules for licensing out her play stating that the person who's playing that role has to be black. 

Like I said, regardless of whether or not the change in the characters ethnic background matters or not in the grand scheme of things is moot. When doing local theatre or theatre on the high school or college level, find a show that works with the people that you've got. I don't remember if it was a production of Hairspray or Ragtime. But, regardless, there weren't enough black actors to fill the roles, how did they solve the problem? They put white actors onstage with blackface. 

[bk]

Posted: 4/26/17 at 6:26pm

Correct - you need permission.  I'm sure colorblind casting has made certain permissions more lax - but just for fun, what if I do my brilliant production of Porgy and Bess with an all-white cast - think the rights' holders would be jiggy with that?

[dramamama611]

Posted: 4/26/17 at 7:05pm

Most shows do not have things written about race, but when they so, you cannot alter it without permission.

Ex....I rec'd permission to cut The Boys Next Door down to a 40 minute cutting.  One character is described as African American. I work in a very white suburban district, when I wrote to see about permission to change it, the author denied.  Bummer.  But we didn't do the show.

Btw...the licensing company has some leeway with permissions,  but only those pre approved by the authors.  Anything not on the pre approved list, has to go through the authors...which usually doesnt take long.

And the answer isn't always the same. I got permission to do a cutting of Neil Simons Fool's.  So many of the other directors (this was for a competition) were surprised as they'd tried previously and has been turned down.

 

Edited  because I can't seem to learn not to type on my phone.

Updated On: 4/26/17 at 07:05 PM

[songanddanceman2]

Posted: 4/26/17 at 7:36pm

As someone who has had plays published and performed I would like to say that unless the company contact the publisher who in turn would contact me to ask permission, it is not legal to alter our work if it's noted in the script that it's for a certain gender. 

[gypsy101]

Posted: 4/26/17 at 9:15pm

not only does this make me say "why?" i also think about how there aren't that many female roles in the show so that sucks for whoever could have been cast instead 

[dramamama611]

Posted: 4/26/17 at 11:08pm

Yes, there's a lot of pissed females in that community!

[aimeric]

Posted: 4/27/17 at 12:26am

I should also add that, while I don't know which libretto is currently licensed by MTI, the original libretto does include sex-specific references to Eponine, i.e., "she" and "girl."  Don't know how you could cast a guy and somehow get around that without changing the text......

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 4/27/17 at 8:42am

Islander_fan said: "henrikegerman

 

Yes, regardless of whether or not a black actress playing a role like Carrie doesn't really take away anything from the show, you still have to ask for permission. When licensing a show, the creative staff can say that the role must be played by someone with a particular ethnic background. There was a college production of the play The Mountaintop at Kent State. The Playwright,Katori Hall was shocked to find out that the person cast as MLK was white. She then quickly then altered the rules for licensing out her play stating that the person who's playing that role has to be black. 

Like I said, regardless of whether or not the change in the characters ethnic background matters or not in the grand scheme of things is moot. When doing local theatre or theatre on the high school or college level, find a show that works with the people that you've got. I don't remember if it was a production of Hairspray or Ragtime. But, regardless, there weren't enough black actors to fill the roles, how did they solve the problem? They put white actors onstage with blackface."

Islander, the question here isn't whether a creative team CAN demand that any licensor comply with a specific casting demographic,  I have no doubt a licensor can (at least in some factual circumstances).  The question I asked was about the legal rules relating to these casting choices in the absence of such explicit restrictive  clauses in the licensing agreement.

The question I asked immediately was whether in the case of Carousel there's anything that pre-obligates a licensee to cast white actors.  For instance, that the agreement says that the cast must be Caucasian.  An especially salient in that show because there is nothing in the text of Carousel that explicitly specifies the ethnic background of Carrie or anyone else... what would such a default white casting restriction be based on?  Original casting?  "Common wisdom?"  White privilege?

The example of The Mountaintop you cite actually shows a playwright in the nick of  time changing a licensing agreement to prevent MLK, a historical figure (and moreover, one singularly identified with issues of race), trom being played by a white actor.  And even then, as you say, Hall had to specifically alter the licensing agreement to make sure that didn't happen. Which, if anything, underscores the issues I'm raising (the need for specific contractual understandings regarding any demographic restrictions on casting), rather than relegates them to some clear default requisites for which a specific exemption would generally be required.

BTW I'm not raising these points and questions because I pretend to know the answers with any certainty at all.  To the contrary.  I'm weighing in with them because I don't fully understand the legal rules others are referring to.And I'm trying to gain clarity.

 

"

 

Updated On: 4/27/17 at 08:42 AM