Miss Saigon + racism- Page 2

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/11/17 at 2:18am

Thanks, A Director, that is interesting. "It's a masterpiece, so let's cut it in half and perform it out of order!" Not that I'm particularly bothered: as with Shakespeare, the original texts exist and aren't destroyed or negated by experimentation.

I'm not sure what they hope to accomplish by making the seppuku "ambiguous". I always think Butterfly's suicide is her ultimate revenge on Pinkerton, something for him to live with from then on.

***

Sally, I don't believe it was I who said STREETCAR or BUTTERFLY is dated. My point was the opposite: that both works remain relevant as long as human beings have ideals and our culture understands the stage conventions well enough to create and enjoy the plays.

I was comparing Cio-Cio (I guess we're spelling her name with Cs now; my copy had Gs) San and Blanche in that both are betrayed by their own idealism and that's what makes them tragic. But of course you are correct that Blanche is more finely drawn; she is, after all, a decade older and a college graduate. And she is betrayed by being unable to live up to her own ideals of love and sexual conduct. Cio-Cio San is more a true victim, though in the Greek sense, it doesn't matter how innocent of bad intention she may be. She fails in her understanding of Pinkerton and that makes her tragic.

 

[devonian.t]

Posted: 7/11/17 at 4:09am

One of the problems with Miss Saigon is its entirely colonial view of the conflict, in a post-colonial world.  It is steeped in a patronizing "them and us" portrayal, (just look at the clumsy writing of 'Bui Doi', which sadly, many people will still not be able to recognize, since our worldview is so one-sided.  (A trip to one of the Vietnamese museums documenting the war really helps to remove the blinkers).

Although still written by another group of white Americans, (and yes, I know B & S are French), it is interesting to compare the portrayal of the foreign invaders in 'Pacific Overtures' and 'Miss Saigon'.  The former genuinely manages to evoke the sense of entitled selfishness and righteous indignation lacking in the second, which still assumes that the indigenous fighters are "the enemy".

 

[Dave28282]

Posted: 7/11/17 at 8:28am

adam.peterson44 said: "One thing that puzzles me.  All of the things that people criticize Miss Saigon for in its portrayal of Kim could also be said of Les Miserables in its portrayal of Fantine (and partially, Eponine).  Like Kim, Fantine falls in love with a guy who gets her pregnant and leaves her, she turns to prostitution to survive/support the child, is beaten/abused by the pimp and customers, gets ill and dies because of the prostitution and leaves her child in the care of a wealthier, healthier person to raise him/her.  Eponine also gets herself shot by climbing back over the barricade in wartime to be with a guy who doesn't love her one more time.  Yet i've never heard anyone say that Les Miserables is racist for its portrayal of French people or sexist for its portrayal of women or of French women.    

The last article linked above is from a person who rather arrogantly presumes that the show should represent her because she is from the same country, but of course, it is not about that author, it is about a fictional person in a very different time and circumstance.  I would never presume that any show set in the US or Canada should represent me (i've lived in each country approx. half my life).  Just because there are not many many shows about Vietnamese characters does not mean that any one show is therefore by default representing all Vietnamese people - that assumption makes no sense at all to me.   And to the author of the article in the first post who knocks down the strawman that the show is not a barnstormer of a musical to him, he seems to forget that some stories are tragedies, not barnstorming, raucous, rip-roaring fun-time shows. 

 

"

I agree. It seems like some people refuse to see Asian characters, like Kim, as human.

This race focus, combined with the crazy idea that everything should represent everyone, and that people say they dislike the show because there are not many other shows about vietnamese characters is pure lunacy.

[Dave28282]

Posted: 7/11/17 at 9:00am

carnzee said: "I'm very familiar with the opera. Who is the white savior in Madam Butterfly? 
The white guy is a complete jerk. Sharpless is nice, but he doesn't save anybody. "

True, and in Miss Saigon the only 2 white characters, Ellen and Chris, are not exactly portrayed as saviors either. More as clueless victims of you ask me. With Kim being the strong, female protagonist. 

 

devonian.t said: "One of the problems with Miss Saigon is its entirely colonial view of the conflict, in a post-colonial world.  It is steeped in a patronizing "them and us" portrayal....
Although still written by another group of white Americans..... "

That is a problem of war and human nature, especially in that time and situation. But it is a strength of Miss Saigon. Because it would be unacceptable had it not been in the show. With that said, I think Miss Saigon is extremely subtle with this, because I can assure you in reality this was much worse than portrayed in the show. The things you mention are actually a part of what makes the show so gripping. Of course people were influenced by all kinds of ideas about foreign countries and people. Of course people had all kinds of motives to say and do clumsy things. It was all about life, death, war, chaos, confusion, them versus us, lust, seeking comfort, different backgrounds and life views. Of course Chris thinks he must do good, he only knows what he knows and how he has been brought up. This show takes that all in but then goes way beyond that. That's what makes it a masterpiece.

Without even mentioning the incredible music, the writing and order of the scenes, the right balance in energy, highlight after highlight in different ways,  the very special given of portraying all characters as real people, with both good and bad sides, which really makes the show so special.

 

 

Updated On: 7/11/17 at 09:00 AM

[AC126748]

Posted: 7/11/17 at 11:36am

Diep Tran, who wrote the article, seems for the past year to have dedicated her life to getting offended by everything and then writing angry articles about it.

Perhaps you'd like to whitesplain to her about why her experience watching Miss Saigon as an actual Vietnamese person is invalid.

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 7/11/17 at 12:48pm

AC126748 said: "Diep Tran, who wrote the article, seems for the past year to have dedicated her life to getting offended by everything and then writing angry articles about it.

Perhaps you'd like to whitesplain to her about why her experience watching Miss Saigon as an actual Vietnamese person is invalid."

 

None of Ms. Tran's opinions or experiences are invalid. She is entitled to feel how she feels, believe what she believes, and write what she writes. I actually agree with her on many of the issues she writes about.

However, my opinion and my experience (yes, as a straight white male - a.k.a. "the bad guy" is that in the last couple years, many theater people have become so easily offended and self-righteous that it is making me, someone who is actually on their side, feel kind of grossed out. This includes POC's who use social media (or in this case, American Theatre Magazine) to express their outrage over every little thing that could be perceived as a "slight" or an injustice, as well as white people full of liberal guilt who are overcompensating by constantly trying to prove to everyone (including themselves) how "not racist" they are by similarly expressing their self-righteous anger over everything.

I am married to a POC. We are about to have a baby girl who will be a POC. And as a theater person, you're damn right I want her and every other POC to feel included both onstage and in the audience. However, I think we can discuss the inequities of representation and inclusion with a little less oversensitivity and hostility.

Should POC's be played only by POC's onstage? Of course. Is it a huge injustice if a talented young man of Sicilian heritage plays Usnavi in In the Heights in a small production in Chicago? I don't think so. It's not ideal, but the fact that it became a national controversy is absurd.

Should we try as much as we can to open up traditionally white roles in classic plays to POC? Definitely. Should the internet explode when the Edward Albee estate doesn't want a black Nick in Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? - a play that is basically about the awful things privileged white people do to each other? Um, no.

Should we have way more shows by POC, about POC? Yes please. In fact, we desperately need to. Should we ignore the previous 2,000 years worth of plays just because most of them were written by white men? That would be unfortunate.

James Corden opened the 2016 Tony Awards by stating, "Theater is a place where every race, creed, sexuality, and gender is equal, is embraced, and is loved. Hate will never win." I love this quote, and believe that everyone in the theater needs to make it part of their daily lives to live up to this statement.

 

[AC126748]

Posted: 7/11/17 at 1:35pm

I'm sure your post is well intentioned, but it absolutely drips with privilege. (And you'll probably stop reading this here and lump me in with the "self-righteous" folk you call out)

in the last couple years, many theater people have become so easily offended and self-righteous that it is making me, someone who is actually on their side, feel kind of grossed out.

This is the typical stuff I see from supposed "allies" all the time--"I'm on your side, but don't make me feel uncomfortable!" "Why do you have to bring up every little thing?" It's not about your level of comfort. And saying something like "Diep Tan seems to have dedicated her life to getting offended by everything" is a typical rhetorical move to silence POC by painting their experiences as hysterical, oversensitive, or performative.

I am married to a POC. We are about to have a baby girl who will be a POC. And as a theater person, you're damn right I want her and every other POC to feel included both onstage and in the audience. However, I think we can discuss the inequities of representation and inclusion with a little less oversensitivity and hostility.

Being married to a nonwhite person doesn't mean that you can't still think or act in ways that are racially insensitive. I'm a white person married to a nonwhite person, as well. I've certainly said things that I probably shouldn't have said--not out of malice, but out of ignorance. And when someone claims that POC are discussing issues with "oversensitivity and hostility," what I hear is that I don't want to be uncomfortable, or I don't want to be called on my s*it. It's projecting.

Should POC's be played only by POC's onstage? Of course. Is it a huge injustice if a talented young man of Sicilian heritage plays Usnavi in In the Heights in a small production in Chicago? I don't think so. 

You'd probably feel differently if one of the handful of roles written specifically for a person of your ethnicity was cast with an Anglo-American or European actor.

Should we have way more shows by POC, about POC? Yes please. In fact, we desperately need to. Should we ignore the previous 2,000 years worth of plays just because most of them were written by white men? That would be unfortunate.

Who on God's green earth is advocating throwing out the entire history of Western drama? Precisely no one. That's not the same thing as some pointing out that it might be more interesting to support a contemporary playwright (especially one who isn't white or isn't male) rather than producing the 57th revival of The Glass Menagerie.

James Corden opened the 2016 Tony Awards by stating, "Theater is a place where every race, creed, sexuality, and gender is equal, is embraced, and is loved. Hate will never win." I love this quote, and believe that everyone in the theater needs to make it part of their daily lives to live up to this statement.

But what you're saying with your words is that theater is a place for everyone, so long as they don't make me feel uncomfortable or act in a way that i deem to be oversensitive or hostile. Basically, nonwhite people can be included if they're seen but not heard.

I think this quote from Donyae Coles says it best: "When a POC calls you out on your s*it, don’t argue with them; listen and accept what they’ve said so that you can grow as an ally. Don’t try to tell them their perspective is wrong. You don’t get to decide what is and isn’t offensive to them."

Updated On: 7/11/17 at 01:35 PM

[Dave28282]

Posted: 7/11/17 at 1:44pm

Everyone is entitled to their opinions but the statements in these articles are either just not true, have nothing to do with this show, or are based on personal issues (like seeing themselves represented in a flattering way, thinking every show or character should represent them etc)

Some examples:

"Simply—there are just a lot of issues with “Miss Saigon.” It perpetuates the stereotype of weak Asian women ready to be saved by western men"

Completely ridiculous statement, disintegrated and has nothing to do with this show, explained in many of the threads here by now. Kim is the strong protagonist of the show. Asian women are portrayed as strong fighters and the only 2 white roles, Ellen and Chris are not anywhere near saviors, nor does anyone see them as that. There was this part of history where Vietnamese people might think their child has a better future in the USA than in this war zone, but that is part of history and the show handles this wonderfully. There is certainly nothing weak about anyone.

"It affirms the emasculation of Asian men as weak and/or sexless"

No. Just no. Thuy is strong, sexy and WANTS Kim.
 

"It celebrates western colonialism."

What the hell? No, just no. Celebrates?  She understands so little about this show that her article should actually be removed. 

"And lastly, “Miss Saigon” romanticizes transnational adoption, reaffirming the belief that children from the east can only be properly raised by white Americans."

Well, actually she should be removed from theatre at all and refrain from writing anything at all. Romanticizing transnational adoption. Get out of here.

"Except what have they learned, really? That Vietnamese women are victims, and Americans are well-meaning buffoons. Perhaps if I were being generous with Miss Saigon, I could read it as a cautionary tale for Asian people: Don’t depend on whiteness; it will kill you."

Seldom have I seen anyone so dumb and twisted and racist. Does this Diep Tran think that the character of Kim chooses to "depend on whiteness"? That it's about color or race for her? Seriously. I hope she is trolling, or else she should get help. Kim and Chris are actually defying the "us versus them" thing and it's about time she does the same.

There is no reason talking to her as long as she refuses to see people, but only race. This show is about people. The "us versus them" thing is a part of the war and the story, but please don't use that in real life when discussing a show. If the subject of a show is too hard for you, then just leave it, but don't bash it.

Whiteness doesn't kill anyone, not in this show either and white people are not well meaning buffoons in this show but also victims, and the Vietnamese women are fighters and protagonists and not just victims.

The fact that this show rises far above that is one of the things that makes it a masterpiece.

 
"As Chris in Miss Saigon moans, “I’m an American, how could I fail to do good?!” The white men are the anguished protagonists. Miss Saigon‘s Americans feel the need to “do good,” we are portrayed as primitive villagers, prostitutes.."

WE? No, the characters in the show. This is not about you. And they are portrayed as much more than that. And Chris' line is HIS view, his context, his helplessness. Is she actually surprised that some Americans thought like that in that time during war? Does she understand history? Does she understand life?


 

Updated On: 7/11/17 at 01:44 PM

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 7/11/17 at 2:18pm

AC -

Thank you for taking the time to write a well-thought out response. That said, it is exactly the kind of thing that I was referring to, and which in many ways goes against the very idea of equality. This is not a time for, "Shut up Whitey and sit down, you're part of the problem," this is the time for, "Yes, our white ancestors created a country that was discriminatory by design, but let's do better." All I'm saying is that we can achieve the desired result without demonizing anyone and by spending our time, focus, and energy on actual injustices instead of things like a community theatre production of Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?

Also, your claim that I am saying that "nonwhite people can be included if they're seen but not heard" is deeply insulting in both in its unfoundedness and yes, its unwarranted hostility.

You want to be part of the solution? So do I. Step one: see and treat everyone as equals with equally important voices.

[Dave28282]

Posted: 7/11/17 at 2:24pm

The Distinctive Baritone said: "AC -
spending our time, focus, and energy on actual injustices instead of things like a community theatre production of Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?"

Actually, bashing this show with things that have nothing do do with this show (like the posted articles do) is injustice.

Words like "whitesplain please" and "My conclusion after seeing the show is: Don’t depend on whiteness; it will kill you" are actually very racist and unfair and also have nothing to do with this show.

The show is not racist. They are.

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 7/11/17 at 2:30pm

'Step one: see and treat everyone as equals with equally important voices.'

But you don't have an equally important voice on every subject.  When the subject is representation of POC in the theater, your voice simply is not as important as the people whose lived experiences as POC.  They are the voices that should be driving this conversation.  And we, as white people, should be listening, no matter how uncomfortable it feels.  I have a lot to say on gay white man issues since that is my lived experience.  It doesn't mean I cannot speak on other issues.  But there will be people who know more because of their experience engaging in the world.  So perhaps your voice and thoughts on this aren't nearly as important as a POC.  Maybe they're actually not important at all.  And maybe neither are mine.  And I'm perfectly fine with that. 

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 7/11/17 at 2:40pm

SonOfRobbieJ -

You make a very good point and I agree.

In that sense, white people should then listen to the experiences of POC's in the theater and not make the conversation about themselves and their admirable abundance of guilt and lack of discriminatory views. It would make POC voices like Diep Trans' more attention-worthy and likely to be heard.

[Dave28282]

Posted: 7/11/17 at 2:40pm

I strongly disagree with this. It's about arguments. The things mentioned in the articles have nothing to do with this show so the fact these unreasonable things are said (like Diep Trans': this show taught me that whiteness kills)  by a POC does not make it about this show or more true. Or anyone else less right.

To brush aside opinions because of someone's color is just not right. We should always stay reasonable.

We should listen to good arguments but we should not accept these kind of arguments. 

Updated On: 7/11/17 at 02:40 PM

[AC126748]

Posted: 7/11/17 at 2:45pm

'Step one: see and treat everyone as equals with equally important voices.'

But you don't have an equally important voice on every subject.  When the subject is representation of POC in the theater, your voice simply is not as important as the people whose lived experiences as POC. 

This. The problem is, white people are so used to being placed (or placing themselves) at the center of conversations that we often don't know how to react when we're not anymore, or when someone suggests that maybe we shouldn't be. 

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 7/11/17 at 2:48pm

'To brush aside opinions because of someone's color is just not right.'

I'm not brushing aside your opinion because you're white.  I'm brushing aside your opinion because you called Miss Saigon a masterpiece which...ooooooh, gurl. 

Updated On: 7/11/17 at 02:48 PM

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 7/11/17 at 2:57pm

AC126748 said: "'Step one: see and treat everyone as equals with equally important voices.'

But you don't have an equally important voice on every subject.  When the subject is representation of POC in the theater, your voice simply is not as important as the people whose lived experiences as POC. 

This. The problem is, white people are so used to being placed (or placing themselves) at the center of conversations that we often don't know how to react when we're not anymore, or when someone suggests that maybe we shouldn't be. 

"

Yeah. So maybe stop making the conversation about how "woke" you are and how you are such a terrific white ally.

Following Robbie's wisdom, I am going to remain a silent observer and listener.

[Dave28282]

Posted: 7/11/17 at 3:04pm

AC126748 said: "The problem is, white people are so used to being placed (or placing themselves) at the center of conversations that we often don't know how to react when we're not anymore, or when someone suggests that maybe we shouldn't be. "

I don't like your language and the use of words such as "whitesplain this please".

What is your goal of this constant race focus?

I am talking about this confused girl, Diep Tran, who displays racist comments and expresses how she thinks the show should be more about her, which is ridiculous for every human being to say, and then goes on to say "This show taught me that whiteness kills", is not true and not fair towards the show. This is not what the show teaches anyone in their right mind.

 

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 7/11/17 at 3:08pm

You guys!  You're being so mean!  Dave is feeling very triggered by the word 'whitesplain' when discussing a show with lyrics like 'Greasy chinks make life so sleazy' and 'one of these slits here will be Miss Saigon.'

[AC126748]

Posted: 7/11/17 at 3:09pm

Yeah. So maybe stop making the conversation about how "woke" you are and how you are such a terrific white ally.

I've done nothing of the sort. Diep Tran certainly doesn't need me to speak for her. It's clear I've hit a nerve, and I'm going to retire from this thread as well, because continuing this line of discussion in this forum seems ultimately fruitless. But I'm glad you've decided to take a step back and listen; maybe you'll learn something.

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 7/11/17 at 3:16pm

"Maybe you'll learn something."

Self-righteous white heroism again. Gee, I wish I could be as smart, noble, and good as you, AC!

[Sally Durant Plummer]

Posted: 7/11/17 at 4:04pm

Oh... I was so enjoying this thread. But it seems they all end up like this anyway.

[haterobics]

Posted: 7/11/17 at 4:12pm

Dave28282 said: "Seldom have I seen anyone so dumb and twisted and racist."



 

[Dave28282]

Posted: 7/11/17 at 5:28pm

SonofRobbieJ said: "You guys!  You're being so mean!  Dave is feeling very triggered by the word 'whitesplain' when discussing a show with lyrics like 'Greasy chinks make life so sleazy' and 'one of these slits here will be Miss Saigon.'"

A character in a show not being wholesome/to your liking because in the story he behaves a certain way in the war in 1975 is something very different than treating a real person like that on a forum in 2017. You are basically confusing these 2 things, just like Diep Tran.

I'm going to stop posting in this thread too, because the discussion is not about the show. It's about personal issues and false accusations. It might as well could have been about Wicked, and people hating the show because Elphaba is green, so she's different, so she's bullied, and I was bullied too, so I hate the show, because I don't think anyone who's different should per definition be bullied, and so I actually rather like to see people who are different but not being bullied and every character should only say things to my liking and behave in a way that suits me and if not I'm going to hate the show, and, blablablablabla, YAWN....

 
Ps. Those "slits" display more character than Diep Tran.
 

Updated On: 7/11/17 at 05:28 PM

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 7/11/17 at 6:11pm

Well, imagine that.  In the end, beating a dead horse results in a dead horse.  Huh.

[Mr. Nowack]

Posted: 7/11/17 at 10:33pm

Awesome discussion u guyz. A bunch of white people arguing over who is RIGHT about race issues....