10 Things You Never Noticed About The Wizard of Oz- Page 3

[Tag]

Posted: 8/25/14 at 1:03am

Who's beside Judy in the Fleming pic? Bobbie Koshay in the Dorothy costume? Can anyone shed some light on why there were 2 doubles/stand-ins? Koshay and Caren Marsh? Does a picture exist of all three of them together?

Updated On: 8/25/14 at 01:03 AM

[CATSNYrevival]

Posted: 8/25/14 at 3:36am

Is that Margaret Hamilton eating in the picture?

[broadwayguy2]

Posted: 8/26/14 at 4:16am

Tag,
That is Koshay next to Judy.
There are pictures of Judy with Koshay and Judy with Marsh, but I have never heard of a picture of Marsh and Koshay together or of all three.
Have two stand-ins / doubles was not uncommon, even on Oz. Lahr had two doubles (Jim Jawcett, Pat Moran), as did Hamilton (Betty Danko, Eileen Goodwin).
In Judy's case, it really was the wisest choice. She was underage, so her work hours were TIGHTLY regulated and really pretty short. In fact, MGM used to fudge this a bit by having hair and makeup at Judy's house to get her ready in the morning because her work clock started when her car passed through the gates. While ther ARE exceptions, it is easiest to assume that any time you do not see Judy's face (and occasionally when you do), you are, in fact, seeing one of her doubles.
Koshay was nearly 30 and an expert stunt woman, so she was better suited for much of Dorothy's work. Marsh was closer to Judy's age and a skilled dancer, so Marsh was used primarily in rehearsals wo work out and set choreography. Once it was set, Judy would come in, learn it as it would be shot and be done.
I am not sure which specific shots in the film, if any, use Marsh, but I can certainly tell you that Koshay performs the fall into the pigpen, the first half of Dorothy's entrance to Munchkin City and kidnapping by the Flying Monkeys...

[broadwayguy2]

Posted: 8/26/14 at 4:17am

CATS,
Yes, that is Hamilton.

[best12bars]

Posted: 8/26/14 at 6:56am

Bobbie was Judy's on-screen double. Caren was Judy's stand-in (never on screen).

Caren was a necessary part of the equation, largely because Judy was a minor, under strict child labor laws. It was Caren who learned all the blocking for the Munchkinland sequence and worked with everyone while the Munchkins learned their steps, etc. Long hours. Then when they were ready for a take, Judy would step out of her trailer, Caren would show her the blocking, and Judy would do it once or twice for the cameras.

Caren also spent a long time working on the tornado sequence. They tested the power of the wind machines, the lighting, blocking, etc., on Caren (fully costumed as Dorothy) until they got it just right ... then Judy stepped in for the filming.

Bobbie is actually on screen several times in the film. She was Judy's "stunt double" as well as double. It's Bobbie who snags her foot on a wire and falls into the pigsty. It's also Bobbie that's lifted up into the air by the flying monkeys.

And in my favorite unedited shot in the movie, it's Bobbie (wearing a B&W checked dress) who opens the door into Munchkinland with her back to the camera, then backs off screen and hands Toto to Judy, who then walks through the door in a color dress into Munchkinland.

[Tag]

Posted: 8/26/14 at 9:22pm

Thanks for the interesting info! Were slippers ever made for Marsh? I believe one existing pair are thought to have been used by Koshay.

[broadwayguy2]

Posted: 8/27/14 at 9:53am

Yes, Marsh had a full and conplete Dorothy costume and wig, so I would imagine slippers were included.
We do not know exactly how many pairs were ever made to start, only what is believed to have survived.. And yes, not all are the same size, so...

[morosco]

Posted: 8/27/14 at 8:09pm

75 Weird, Wonderful Facts About The Wizard of Oz

[CATSNYrevival]

Posted: 8/27/14 at 11:05pm

Number 13 seems to be in contrast to what we see in the photograph that beautywickedlover posted on the previous page. Though the photograph is in black and white. She may have been out of her make up.

[Tag]

Posted: 8/27/14 at 11:54pm

Good catch Cats! Makes you question some of these "facts".

[AllisonBWW]

Posted: 8/28/14 at 12:57am

Hamilton doesn't appear to be wearing all her makeup in that photo.

Notice the distinct nose and chin missing. It could be safe to assume that she had either removed the makeup or had not had it put on at that point yet.

She couldn't eat while in the makeup.

[broadwayguy2]

Posted: 8/28/14 at 11:56am

Hamilton's makeup was, in fact, toxic. That was what made her burns so severe during that filming accident.they could remove some make up for her to eat freely, but it was a chore to get in and out, so she generally did not and had to exercise caution.


A few facts on that lengthy lost ARE complete crap, but I don't have enough time right now to dissect them in a post. Ha Updated On: 8/28/14 at 11:56 AM

[best12bars]

Posted: 8/28/14 at 4:39pm

Man, I kinda hate when these lists are published. I'm not an "expert," although I'm often considered one (and called upon to be so) because I've written a couple of Oz-themed books, but I had to stop reading this. It's a mixture of facts, partial facts, and completely inaccurate information.

Just start with simple stuff, like the date of death for L. Frank Baum. Easy to check, and easy to see that they got it wrong.

So many others, too.

Blah.

[CATSNYrevival]

Posted: 8/28/14 at 7:22pm

I've often wondered about these additional Witch scenes that were supposedly deemed too scary and cut. I assume no footage exists. Are there early drafts of the script with extra Witch scenes or is this another tall tale?

[best12bars]

Posted: 8/28/14 at 10:01pm

The only thing I've heard was that they trimmed some of her dialogue, not full scenes. There are two instances in the film where you can see she's continuing with a line as they cut away.

The first in Munchkinland, right before Glinda says, "Aren't you forgetting the ruby slippers?"

The second: in the castle when the witch shakes the Golden Cap at Nikko (the flying monkey). She had extra dialogue there, and you can see her start it as they crossfade to the poppy field.

[broadwayguy2]

Posted: 8/29/14 at 12:29am

Tall tale.
No full additional scenes, but much extended dialogue, sadly, no footage exists.
Several editions of the screenplay feature the "shooting script" that includes all the deleted scenes and dialogue that were filmed..including Dorothy's interaction with Hickory before Over the Rainbow and all of the Witch's dialogue, including the "beehive" scene after they pick ip the Tinman.hamilton dod have some zingers, though they are tame by modern standards. For one, the skywriting sequence originally had her spelling out "Surrender Dorothy or DIE"

[CATSNYrevival]

Posted: 8/29/14 at 2:50am

You're right! She has tons of extra dialogue. Although, I think they made a better movie by cutting it. Some of it isn't scary it's silly. The crown was a wishing cap? And what's with the Tin Man getting all upset over killing a bee? The editors did a good job getting rid of that stuff.

[broadwayguy2]

Posted: 8/29/14 at 4:08am

Oh please.
Both of those things are taken almost directly from the Baum nobel and work fine.
It's not a crown, it is a Golden Cap. It is what controls the Flying Monkeys.
In the book, the Tinman kills a bug and is upset by it.. It is a device to show that he has a heart. In the film, it would have been a continuation of the fireball she tosses at the Scarecrow. It would have worked fine, but juat would have been longer.

[CATSNYrevival]

Posted: 8/29/14 at 6:06pm

I still think they were smart to cut it. The dialogue is rediculous. The Tin Man is far too upset and then suddenly Dorothy is a bee expert and knows all about honey bees and worker bees in order to comfort him and the children watching the film.

[broadwayguy2]

Posted: 8/30/14 at 12:51am

Not disagreeing with cutting it. It would have been redundant.
The Tinman cries at the drop of a hat several times in the film. It is not abnormal for him.
Bee expert? Hardly. Mosre like a basic skill to identify them that is not uncommon for a farm girl or someone with at least a passing interest.