Associated Press: Gay voters angry at Democrats could sway election- Page 3
Associated Press: Gay voters angry at Democrats could sway election
Joined: 12/31/69
Associated Press: Gay voters angry at Democrats could sway election#50
Posted: 10/25/10 at 5:52pm
No, really, I'll start ignoring...NOW! After I say a few more words, I will, I swear! I'm going to start ignoring! NOW! Yep, all ignored. I hope you notice, I'm ignoring you.
See, everyone but Roscoe, I expect people to be able to defend their positions. I understand there will be all sorts of variance in what we believe and how we approach problems. But just as I feel compelled to slip a little reality to people holding signs saying "Keep government out of my Medicare!" when someone posts something that makes a 7 year-old's tantrum seem well-reasoned I feel like I ought to try to help them understand. Maybe they will calm down a little, see the bigger picture. I know it's often a pointless exercise but I think it's worth doing for the future of the human race. Besides, if you can take a minute and listen to WHY someone holds that opinion, you MIGHT be able to explain WHY you feel other wise and a dialogue happens- and sometimes, you can appreciate another point of view- or they can appreciate yours.
But not today I guess.
I'd urge everyone to look carefully at their local races and vote the person you think best represents you. There are A LOT of people on the ballot who can do a lot of good (or bad) to you & your community. Staying home does nothing- the only way change is created is by getting MORE involved, not less.
Associated Press: Gay voters angry at Democrats could sway election#51
Posted: 10/25/10 at 6:10pm
I can see how a reasonable person might surmise Obama has a deep-seated problem with gay people. The way he has handled every issue that has come up has been terrible. Even his damage control attempts blow. Having the gay Episcopal might have seemed like it was "fair" but getting rid of the ex-gay altogether would have been smarter. Then burying the Episcopal before the ceremony seemed really dunderheaded.
I can think of absolutely no logical reason the man could tell presumed young gay viewers on the other side of the camera he assured "it gets better" on the very week his administration was working otherwise. Hell, I might have even respected him a bit more if he said, "Unless you're in the military."
If progressives could hold Bush in contempt for squandering the good will of the world after 9/11, the Obama can certainly at least be told he has not done right by a community he courted.
His line about how DADT will be repealed on his "watch" reminded me of nothing so much as Whoopi Goldberg's HBO special, "Fontaine: Why Am I Straight?" in which her chemically enhanced alter ego did an impression of Reagan bending over union members and the citizens of the US and entering them from behind as he assured them he was their friends and would take care of them.
Associated Press: Gay voters angry at Democrats could sway election#52
Posted: 10/25/10 at 6:35pmI LOVED that special. I recorded it to VHS and watched it all the time.
Joined: 12/31/69
Associated Press: Gay voters angry at Democrats could sway election#53
Posted: 10/25/10 at 6:38pm
I can see how people screwed by the military would be angry- to be bounced out of the service because of who you sleep with is awful- to have to hide your true orientation to serve, awful. But that's the law of the land right now. If you are gay, DO NOT enlist in the military. And if you insist on serving, you need to completely submerge yourself in the closet.
DADT was Clinton's "Compromise" with right wingers in 1993. Except it wasn't a compromise. It made it worse. It codified into law what up till then was military policy. Clinton hasn't been inaugurated yet when he said he was going issue an executive order allowing gays to serve openly in the military. I still don't know why he did that. If he had done it, there would have been a ****storm, but the deed would be done. Of course, back then we thought you could reason with Republicans. He was afraid he'd get no cooperation with the Republicans if he so openly flaunted his power. So he "compromised" and suddenly a problem that could be solved by an executive order became the law of the land. A horrible law, but the law.
Now we are close- so close- to repealing it. The President, house and senate all want it gone. But because of the rules of the senate, the minority can overrule the majority and they have.
But why not let the Court strike it down- it is indeed an unconstitutional law (I think so anyway). Well, they might,(eventually) but a federal law is a federal law up to the point it's struck down. If the Department of Justice starts picking and choosing which rulings to challenge, the Legislative branch is all but out of business. A circuit court ruling on a federal law MUST be challenged. Otherwise, some judge in Alabama could strike down health care reform and a Republican president can point to the "Obama Precedent" and not challenge it.
Anyway that's neither here nor there to someone bitter they are getting booted out of the service. But there is logic to his path.
Updated On: 10/25/10 at 06:38 PM
Associated Press: Gay voters angry at Democrats could sway election#54
Posted: 10/25/10 at 6:40pmIs he dawdling on DADT because God is in the mix or is that something else?
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/10/04
Associated Press: Gay voters angry at Democrats could sway election#55
Posted: 10/25/10 at 7:46pm
I think we need an Obama Musical Break, right about now.
Associated Press: Gay voters angry at Democrats could sway election#56
Posted: 10/25/10 at 8:54pm
"If you are gay, DO NOT enlist in the military."
Oh, Joe. I know you're trying to demonstrate the "rational adult" version of discussion, but such dispassion seems to lack empathy or even a basic understanding of several important things about the military.
Who, in general, enlists in the military? What are their economic circumstances? More importantly. what are the economic circumstances of their families of origin? What, for example, do their racial and ethnic backgrounds look like? How old are these enlistees?
Why would we presume all people in their late teens are even out to themselves when we hear stories all the time of civilians not realizing they're gay until they're in their 20s, or 30s, or later?
Your "If you are gay, DO NOT enlist in the military" smacks of a certain kind of presumptive white middle-class privilege that most of these young enlistees do not enjoy. It also reminds me of the hard-liners who proclaimed, "Why would you be worried about the draconian measures of the Patriot Act? Just don't DO ANYTHING WRONG."
And finally, if you're looking for a history of why did Clinton say he would sign an executive order allowing gays to serve openly in the military? It's because the numbnuts of the Human Rights Campaign pressured him to. The fact is, had he done it, there would have been a crapstorm for a month and EVERYBODY would have gotten over it.
Perhaps if Barack "Fierce Advocate/That's My Watch You're Looking At" Obama had delayed his DOJ motion for just a little longer than 4 frigging hours, the world would have had a demonstrable object lesson that the it was still turning and had not come to an end.
But he is too worried about this election day and the one two years from now. How has he not learned that his Zen pose is one thing, but his active working against what he says he wants to happen carries heavy symbolism? But you know, he's choosing his own adventure and we (and gay members of the military) are just living in it.
Joined: 12/31/69
Associated Press: Gay voters angry at Democrats could sway election#57
Posted: 10/25/10 at 9:22pm
What good does it do to enlist in the Military if you are gay? When discussing this very issue with a poor, white, high school drop out young gay boy I told him if he really wants to go work in a homophobic environment that give him good training, low pay and a chance for advancement only if he stays deeply closeted, go work at WalMart and gun for their management program.
I am in agreement the law should be changed. I also agree the law against smoking pot should be changed. So I tell my Nephew to not smoke pot because you can get arrested. And don't smoke dick, private, you will get kicked out. And It's been that way for nearly 20 years.
Awful, unfair but the hard truth.
Associated Press: Gay voters angry at Democrats could sway election#58
Posted: 10/25/10 at 10:28pm
Okay, so you seem absolutely determined to not acknowledge that for many people, of every sexual stripe, not going into the military is simply not an option. I'm glad, however, you're fully satisfied with the cut and dried answer you have. It does seem so simple, the way you put it.
Meanwhile, it'd be nice if the fierce advocate was not working against, you know, fierce advocates.
Associated Press: Gay voters angry at Democrats could sway election#59
Posted: 10/25/10 at 11:42pm
What good does it do to enlist in the Military if you are gay?
That's a false premise. The point is they usually don't KNOW they're gay when they enlist.
Many young people from backgrounds or environments that are repressed or homophobic do not self-identify as gay until they are in their mid- or late-twenties.
Most young people who enlist in the military come from these backgrounds. They deny their sexual identities until well into their twenties and sometimes their thirties. Sometimes they marry, sometimes they have children. Sometimes they use the discipline the military fosters to push down their emotional or erotic desires. Sometimes the stress of this repression has negative consequences on their physical emotional health.
Sometimes these people are otherwise exemplary members of the military.
So the "poor, white, high school drop out young gay boy" you advised has an advantage over most of the other men and women caught in the snares of DADT: Your young friend already knows that he is gay. I hope you can see that such clarity is unusual.
At any rate, he hasn't enlisted yet, so your bringing him up merely obfuscates the larger point.
Joined: 12/31/69
Associated Press: Gay voters angry at Democrats could sway election#60
Posted: 10/26/10 at 12:50am
"for many people, of every sexual stripe, not going into the military is simply not an option." I have reread that a half-dozen times and still can't understand why in the world you'd say that- at least since 1973.
And my young friend, against my advice to the contrary, is entering the Navy right after Christmas. I think it's a horrible mistake.
Associated Press: Gay voters angry at Democrats could sway election#61
Posted: 10/26/10 at 1:27am
"What good does it do to enlist in the Military if you are gay?"
1. Access to a theatre in which to demonstrate to kith and kin back home and to society at large an immense love of country
2. Gets Jimmy Dean out of PooDunk, USA.
3. Gain a passport to exotic locales in a world heretofore unseen
4. Collect a steady paycheck, health insurance and survivors benefits for the folks back home
5. Fulfillment of that sense of adventure possessed by most young men in their late teens to mid-twenties. For some, the alternative is to turn tricks in the big city.
6. A chance to lead for once in his life, if he's lucky & plays the game well.
Many friends of mine are former Military servicemen who enlisted before graduating high school. Most admit privately that they got their first shot of putang either offbase just before or during their first overseas tour. I don't believe that it's always about denial of sexual identity for those young men as much as it's about establishing one in the first place.
I have no evidence empirical, anecdotal or otherwise to support my assertion, but I find that the 3-letter guy from high school who bags half the cheer-leading squad rarely enlists because he's accustomed to being king of the hill. Need drives many young men to enlist including the need to be a hero (and men) in the eyes of others. He couldn't compete with Mr. 3-letter in H.S. for the attention of the chicks but let him come back home a strapping figure in a uniform with a few war stories and by golly he's gettin' laid aplenty. I've been completely excoriated in other fora for suggesting that society as we know it is doomed when we start socializing young boys like girls. We men seem to be hardwired with a hero gene, a need to save the day on occasion.
Joe -- I honestly don't think your question's disingenuous. Many men including this one have questioned why a woman would enlist in the Military along the same lines. The thought-bubble that always emerges is "because she's entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". It's not up to me to define those parameters for the next adult dude or dudette.
Broadway Legend Joined: 11/3/05
Associated Press: Gay voters angry at Democrats could sway election#62
Posted: 10/26/10 at 6:27am
You also have the reality of simple economics. While it's easy to spout a witicism like "go work at WalMart and gun for their management program," the reality is that WalMart doesn't provide food/shelter/clothing from day one.
A lot of these young men also come from backgrounds with huge stigmas attached to being gay. The military becomes a place to hide - much like entering the priesthood was (and even is, to some point.) I see that a lot from our neck of the woods. Ironically, removing the barrier in the military would also remove that chance to remove questioning about sexuality.
And might I add that 'being out' isn't the only advantage Joe's young 'mo had - he was also white.
Updated On: 10/26/10 at 06:27 AM
Associated Press: Gay voters angry at Democrats could sway election#63
Posted: 10/26/10 at 7:40amI was raised on a military base and it seemed to me that there were more gay women than gay men. I once got into a conversation with a man I worked with who graduated from The Citadel- along with his 7 brothers. His argument was that gay men brought in AIDS. I reminded him that many straight men were more promiscuous-especially when you would see newstories of Asian women who would sell their teenage daughters to the servicemen. A lot of the boys from my high school enlisted in the military because it was their only choice. They either couldn't afford college or couldn't get into it. (These are just observations and not meant to be judgemental.)
Associated Press: Gay voters angry at Democrats could sway election#64
Posted: 10/26/10 at 8:03amYou're not being judgmental, mom. You're just showing how Joe's advice to his young friend was shallow and culturally insensitive.
Associated Press: Gay voters angry at Democrats could sway election#65
Posted: 10/26/10 at 9:55am
In other news....
"WASHINGTON — Less than halfway through his first term, President Barack Obama has appointed more openly gay officials than any other president in history."
Obama's Gay Appointees Smash Record
Associated Press: Gay voters angry at Democrats could sway election#66
Posted: 10/26/10 at 10:12amObama has appointed more people whose equal rights and basic humanity he denies than any other president in history.
Associated Press: Gay voters angry at Democrats could sway election#67
Posted: 10/26/10 at 10:20amAnd I won't try to speak for gay Americans who aren't part of the 150 Obama appointees, but my reaction is big whoop. I hope the partners of these appointees have their own insurance plans.
Joined: 12/31/69
Associated Press: Gay voters angry at Democrats could sway election#68
Posted: 10/26/10 at 10:40amWell PJ I hope you'll be around to help the kid when he gets kicked out for being gay.
Associated Press: Gay voters angry at Democrats could sway election#69
Posted: 10/26/10 at 10:46am
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101026/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_obama_gay_appointees
"The pace of appointments has helped to ease broader disappointment among gay rights groups that Obama has not acted more quickly on other fronts, such as ending the "don't ask, don't tell" policy that bans gays from serving openly in the military."
Oh, okay.
Associated Press: Gay voters angry at Democrats could sway election#70
Posted: 10/26/10 at 10:58am
"Obama has appointed more people whose equal rights and basic humanity he denies than any other president in history"
Well...I don't know...that seems to be a little bit of hyperbole to me. I mean didn't Clinton do MORE damage by having DADT and DOMA put into law under his watch?
My reaction to the news was pretty much "big whoop" too. But it doesn't seem to support the idea that he HATES gay people.
Associated Press: Gay voters angry at Democrats could sway election#71
Posted: 10/26/10 at 11:11am
"Well...I don't know...that seems to be a little bit of hyperbole to me. I mean didn't Clinton do MORE damage by having DADT and DOMA put into law under his watch?"
Obama's damage is at least as bad, I'd say, as he is passing himself off to a lot of people as being ever-so-gay-friendly while perpetuating (and legally defending in court) the very policies that Clinton put in place and that Obama claimed a willingness to have overturned. Obama's pretended opposition to DOMA is hot air: he claims to not support the law, but his opposition to marriage equality is a matter of public record.
Basically, gay folks can be his employees. But he's not going to think of them as being his equals.
Broadway Legend Joined: 11/3/05
Associated Press: Gay voters angry at Democrats could sway election#72
Posted: 10/26/10 at 11:28am
"it doesn't seem to support the idea that he HATES gay people."
And Reagan had gay friends. With friends like these . . .
Associated Press: Gay voters angry at Democrats could sway election#73
Posted: 10/26/10 at 11:31amI don't think Obama's issue is that he hates gay people. I think his issue is that he's a piss poor leader.
Associated Press: Gay voters angry at Democrats could sway election#74
Posted: 10/26/10 at 11:57am
There's just too much irony that surfaces when you look at what Obama brags about having done, what Obama says he's will do, and what he does in the meatime. All the seemingly pro-gay things he crows about his left hand doing are seriously undermined by what his right hand is doing.
All the horse-race predictions of the apres-midterms Obama administration are saying he will have to "move to the center" like Clinton did if/when the Republicans take control of congress. Which is just terrific when you consider he moved DIRECTLY to the center the day after he was elected. The only "shifting" he has left to do is further to the right.
Great.
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