Can We Put People Back in the Closet?- Page 4

[RobbO]

Posted: 12/7/05 at 12:30pm

again, she's not saying she's bi. if she said she was bisexual and chooses to be with a woman, then fine. but that's not what she said.

oh, and i find it funny that she's now the spokeswoman for olivia cruise lines. so it's okay for her to profit "choosing" to be gay?

[DayDreamer]

Posted: 12/7/05 at 12:32pm

DG... I saw it on tv. I don't remember if it was the news or an entertainment show, but that's where I saw her say she made the choice.

[robbiej]

Posted: 12/7/05 at 12:34pm

Exactly, jailyard!

No one is discounting your experience, RobbO...I happen to believe I was born gay, too. The point is, if religion, a chosen belief system, is protected by our Constitution, so should being openly gay, which is a choice (not the attraction or the impulse...the declaration).

[RobbO]

Posted: 12/7/05 at 12:34pm

LOGO is continously running a preview of an interview she did for an upcoming special premiere on LOGO this weekend. it is in that promo where she makes the statement.


i believe it is in this upcoming special - the out 100 (see link)

the out 100

Updated On: 12/7/05 at 12:34 PM

[DG]

Posted: 12/7/05 at 12:37pm

In the extensive printed interview in the Advocate, she talks about choice more than once, but it's always in the context of choosing to come out - not choosing to be gay. Is it possible that the clip is giving a misleading impression? Both the printed and audio interviews are attached to the Advocate, so it might be a possibility.

[RobbO]

Posted: 12/7/05 at 12:37pm

i agree that the declaration is a choice but i think that we're talking about what the "definition of is, is" kind of situation.

[RobbO]

Posted: 12/7/05 at 12:38pm

former NJ governor jim mcgreevey is another person who i'd like to put back in the closet. he is not a role model for our community.

[DG]

Posted: 12/7/05 at 12:40pm

I disagree, RobbO. Even if you accept being gay as a given, there is still a choice to be made whether or not to come out, which is especially important for someone in the public eye. I see a vast difference in the concepts of choosing to be gay and choosing to be out about it. And since the problem some seem to be having is the perception that she is saying she's choosing to be gay, I think it's an important distinction to make.

[robbiej]

Posted: 12/7/05 at 12:40pm

RobbO,

The only reason I'll agree about McGreevy is he had an opportunity to actually do some good...to use his notoriety to be eloquent and move people. And he's dropped the ball. Yes...he came out in scandal...but it was what should have come after that could have counted.

[DayDreamer]

Posted: 12/7/05 at 12:42pm

It is possible, DG. I just remember almost choking when I heard it.

[RobbO]

Posted: 12/7/05 at 12:43pm

it's not the out 100 it IS the premiere of the advocate newsmagazine this weekend on LOGO.
advocate newsmagazine

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 12/7/05 at 12:48pm

My insisting that Cheryl is bisexual is nothing more than trying to get at what is inherent--internal--beyond politics and society and stigma. And, the only reason I do that is because THAT is what explains these things as opposed to the ridiculous comments that the media makes about someone like Anne Heche and similar "people who flip flop their sexuality". I merely wish that people could stop thinking that sexuality is black or white. I wish they would realize that when someone dates men and then suddenly starts dating Ellen or another famous lesbian and then "goes back to men", that they aren't converting sexual orientations--they are acting on an inherent bisexuality. But so many people choose to ignore the idea of bisexuality. It's "she was straight one moment and then gay the next!" And that isn't true INHERENTLY. Either the straight part was a facade or she is bisexual and *choosing* to live as a lesbian.

Now, as far as all the "let's respect how people's personal experiences, etc"--well no ****. And, I've already stated that that is what I do. After YEARS of respecting closeted guys' assertion that they are straight, I get the importance that one respect a person's opinion of what and how things are.

Again--I would never tell Cheryl she is wrong. But, I am allowed to think what I think on the inherent matters--and it isn't a drawn out thought process in my head. It is a simple thought deep in the back of my mind that acknowledges a person's capacity for bisexuality, so that I don't go through all the SHOCK and OMG when someone tells me they are now into a different gender.

My first BF is married to a woman and they have 3 kids. When they started dating. ALL ALL ALL of his gay friends abandoned him except me. Why? "Oh, so you're gonna be STRAIGHT now?". And, all I ever thought was, "Oh. I guess he's bi. Cool." And we joke that he is a gay man who fell in love with a woman, but they both acknowledge that inherently there was bisexuality to allow him to fall for a woman.

Yes--labels are complicated. Yes--we should all label ourselves how we feel comfortable and how it works with the world we are traveling through. I label myself as gay even though inherently I am bisexual.

Thus, I get this.

[shameless]

Posted: 12/7/05 at 12:48pm

What's not to like about this thread. An actual discussion between mature intelligent adults.

But, I have to take issue with one statement. Since when have female athletes been seen as the epitome of heterosexuality?

I played three sports in high school and I remember having a girl ask me if I was worried people would think I was a "dyke".

Updated On: 12/7/05 at 12:48 PM

[DG]

Posted: 12/7/05 at 12:51pm

I actually do understand the frustration if what's being presented is the concept of choosing sexuality. However, like I said, in the print interviews I've read, that is not what she says at all. I haven't seen this advertising clip, but I do know that it's possible for a statement to be taken out of context and give an entirely different impression. If that is indeed what's happening here, then it's a disservice to her first of all, and secondly to those who are reacting negatively to it (however justifiably.)

[RobbO]

Posted: 12/7/05 at 12:52pm

i've never once heard swoopes or especially anne heche state they are/were bisexual. so it's great that you believe that, jerby, but in their two cases i don't think it's a valid point.

[RobbO]

Posted: 12/7/05 at 12:54pm

dg, if you have the current advocate you'll see that out of three letters in the magazine regarding swoopes' coming out, two of them are criticisms of promoting her as an "out and proud" lesbian which is not what she is projecting.

Updated On: 12/7/05 at 12:54 PM

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 12/7/05 at 12:55pm

I can't remember if it was CNN or what, but the day that it was all over the news that she was coming out, she said in the interview that she believes that she chose to be gay. It was very clear cut. I only apologize that I can not recall the reason why she feels it was a choice. I know some women feel that way as a result of abuse, and I can't recall if that was her reasoning.

And, as I said earlier in this thread, that is my argument against the anti-gay movement--it isn't a choice, but even if it was, religion is a choice, too.

[nomdeplume]

Posted: 12/7/05 at 12:56pm

justthefacts2, a male rabbinical student once told me that Judaism's position re homosexuality was "hate the sin but not the sinner." Updated On: 12/7/05 at 12:56 PM

[DG]

Posted: 12/7/05 at 12:56pm

Although I really don't see this as the crux of the disagreement here, just for the record, Ms. Swoopes says quite succinctly in the Advocate interview, "I don't consider myself bisexual."

[RobbO]

Posted: 12/7/05 at 12:56pm

jerby, would you state that you are "choosing to be gay" or were you born bisexual?

[RobbO]

Posted: 12/7/05 at 1:00pm

that was my point, dg. if she said she was bi and now chooses to be with women, then fine, great, good for you. that's not the case however.

while those of us in the gay community might make distinctions, clarifications and split hairs, the general public will see/hear this and say, "see, she's choosing it" or "see, gay men in power will make political appointments based upon their sexual needs..."

Updated On: 12/7/05 at 01:00 PM

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 12/7/05 at 1:01pm

Let me clarify, robbO--I wish the people themselves would acknowledge bisexuality as well as the media who gets all giggly and mystified.

I was born bisexual. I choose to identify as gay as that is pretty much all date or sleep with. If that is all Swoopes is trying to say, then groovy.

And, DG, again, she said it was a choice IN the interview on TV.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 12/7/05 at 1:03pm

I have a problem with the whole concept of "role model." How can any human being live up to the pressure of being a "role model"? It's a pedestal from which all would fall.

We all have admirable aspects and less-than-admirable aspects--and that includes performers and athletes ESPECIALLY.

There's no reason to put Cheryl down for her statements. She didn't take a crash course on what to say and what not to say. She's being honest and speaking from her hgeart and her experience. Let's stop at praising her for her courage and let it be.

Similarly with Governor Jim McGreevey. So he had bad taste in men and gave his secret bf a job for which the guy was not really qualified. At least he didn't seduce vulnerable underage boys while campaigning against gay rights, like May Jim West of Spokane.

PalJoey says: No one is a role model. You model your behavior on the BEST of everyone around you.

[RobbO]

Posted: 12/7/05 at 1:03pm

but maybe they are not bisexual so why would they acknowledge it? if that's your freak flag, then fly it and fly it proudly.

[DG]

Posted: 12/7/05 at 1:04pm

Again, just for my clarification (because I haven't seen any of the TV appearences in discussion) - has the full interview aired, or is this in reaction to a clip used for promotion?