Gay Jews- Page 2
Gay Jews
#25Gay Jews
Posted: 8/22/11 at 1:28pmThere's no point in discoursing with you, because you're not open to having an actual intellectual conversation about religion. You just want to spout off the same "facts" that you've now posted, in one iteration or another, on multiple threads--primates, equating the religious right with all religious people, claiming that all people of faiths are literalists of their foundational religious texts, etc. Like Rep. Frank (who, by the way, IS both openly and proudly gay and a practicing Jew) said, "arguing with you is like arguing with a dining-room table." You can believe whatever you want to believe, but the constant inaccuracies in your posts that you pass along as (pardon the pun) gospel truth--and your confrontational, head-in-the-sand nature--demonstrate how little you actually grasp about the subject on which you're discussing. It's clear that you know very little about religion in general, religious history, and religious people.
bethnor
Broadway Star Joined: 10/15/08
#26Gay Jews
Posted: 8/22/11 at 1:34pm
you did not answer any of my questions.
i also clearly stated that the religion itself is the problem, not its votaries. most people who practice a religion are decent folk.
did the things happen in FOR THE BIBLE TOLD ME SO as i outlined, or didn't they? in what way were my facts "inaccurate" then? do you deny we are primates? where did i say that all religious people are literalists? these accusations are simply the reflex of those who somehow want to reconcile these ancient lies with modern facts. why are you trying so hard?
why don't you answer the question? is the presidential election in 2012 basically second class citizenry vs. maybe gay rights, or not? maybe when you answer that question we can have an "actual intellectual conversation."
barney frank may be a practicing jew, but only in his sunset years can he get married. why is that? why couldn't he get married at a younger age, allowed to live his life in peace
with whomever he chose? why did he have to fight for that right tooth and nail? answer those questions, too, if you want to have an "intellectual conversation." why is it that rabbi boteach schmuley, who has a brother who is gay, can't come out and just say he loves his brother, and his brother should be allowed to be married and live his life in peace, and anyone who thinks otherwise can go to hell, instead of writing a watered down half answer about how society just has to move past it?
Updated On: 8/22/11 at 01:34 PM
#27Gay Jews
Posted: 8/22/11 at 1:42pm
Bethnor, you're speaking as though a religion exists independent of its followers.
If its followers' interpretations change--which they have throughout the centuries and continue to do--then the religion changes.
Of course the cases you cite are true--as are cases of religious people not acting in the objectionable ways you mention. Many people view their religion as a revealed faith, which evolves as humankind's understanding evolves.
So just as most of the Western faithful don't believe in slavery or the subjugation of women, many are coming to a new understanding of homosexuality.
I think we can all agree that it's too bad that it's taken/taking this long.
bethnor
Broadway Star Joined: 10/15/08
#28Gay Jews
Posted: 8/22/11 at 2:02pm
Bethnor, you're speaking as though a religion exists independent of its followers.
reginald,
did you choose to be gay or not?
do people choose to be part of a religion, or not? if people can choose their religion, it seems to be that religions and its followers can indeed be independent.
now, i don't like to speak to ppl who have been fighting the fight, so to speak, for much longer than i and who have suffered more indignities than i, but all this seems self-evident now. if you live in america, 2012 is just around the corner. there is a serious possibility that our ticket will have perry/bachmann or some such combination. bachmann really believes that you can pray the gay away. she really thinks we should use our tax dollars to spread damaging lies about homosexuality. she has supported legislation that says that homosexuals can be fired for their sexual orientation. perry really wants to make a constitutional amendment to define marriage as between a man and a woman. he really wants to make a constitutional amendment to allow congress to overturn the ruling of the courts in violation of the principle set up by our founding fathers, and was our only legal means to overturn prop 8 (the majority votes to deprive minorities of their rights, the judges overturn it, well, we'll just get rid of the judges and find someone more sympathetic to the majority).
with the discontent in the nation now, there is the very real possibility that these people will be elected to lead us, which should justifiably frighten anyone who is gay, because they want to punish us for accident of birth, which is immoral and wicked. it needs to be opposed, not embraced or reconciled.
Updated On: 8/22/11 at 02:02 PM
#29Gay Jews
Posted: 8/22/11 at 2:06pm
barney frank may be a practicing jew, but only in his sunset years can he get married. why is that?
Yes, that is terrible. It's also terrible that as recently as 45 years ago a white person couldn't marry a person of another race in many states. That right had to be fought for, too. Blame the laws for that.
As to the rest of your questions, they are clearly rhetorical, thus requiring no answer. And as I've said, I have no interest in having a conversation with someone who isn't actually interested in a discussion, but rather is only seeking a forum to spout off their already well-rehearsed rhetoric. Reg, who has a lot more grace than I do, enumerates many useful points in his post.
#31Gay Jews
Posted: 8/22/11 at 2:13pm
To use Michelle Bachmann as your representative of what all Christians are like is like using Jeffrey Dahmer as your example of what all gay men are like. And we all know that the so-called Christian right wing has tried to do just that for decades.
I admire your passion, Bethnor, but I urge you not to use the thought processes and/or debating techniques of those whose behavior you object to.
#32Gay Jews
Posted: 8/22/11 at 4:08pm
I had no idea that religious diversity doesn't exist. My mother is Christian (Unitarian) and I have to remember to tell her she's homophobic now. And someone should tell the Vatican that the progressive changes they have made are completely invalidated. There is only one possible interpretation of Christianity and it apparently comes from the mouths of Perry and Bachmann. Who knew? Someone should tell Jesus so he can get on board.
Thankfully, I'm a lisping effeminate homosexual pedophile atheistic drag queen hair stylist who loves disco, fashion, circuit parties, Judy Garland and crystal meth. I simply have no room in my Chelsea flat amongst all the feather boas and sex toys for any sense of spiritual identity. Otherwise, I would instantly become a heterosexual bigot. I'm too fabulous for that and I have to watch Sex in the City 2 again, so there is no time.
#34Gay Jews
Posted: 8/22/11 at 6:33pm
and fyi- it's "peyos"
Tell that to the internet. If you Google "peyos", it tries to correct you, and shows results for "payos" instead of "peyos". The first website listed for both "peyos" and "payos" is the Wikipedia entry for "payot". In fact, there are 8 different spelling variations on that entry alone. Let's not split hairs (no pun intended).
Wanting life but never knowing how
#35Gay Jews
Posted: 8/22/11 at 7:16pm
most people who practice a religion are decent folk.
That, to me, is a far cry from the tone of most of your posts in this thread.
bethnor
Broadway Star Joined: 10/15/08
#38Gay Jews
Posted: 8/22/11 at 9:36pm
again, many of you are missing the point and are using typical apologist straw man arguments to try and refute me.
this argument more or less goes, "you can't characterize a religion as bad because it has a few bad people in it." that is not my argument at all and i invite you to show me where i said that.
i am saying that the religion ITSELF is a corrupting influence. for the third time, i will say the vast majority of its votaries are decent people. i will take it a step further. where, reginald, did i say that bachmann is typical of christians? i actually think that she is a morally average person who has been corrupted by her religious views. this is most obvious in george rekers. it's plain as can be that he is gay. but his religion lied to him about what he was and claimed that he is an abomination hated by god. take note, i did not say that religious people told him that, i am saying that is what his RELIGION ITSELF taught him. it irrevocably warped his mind and set him on a path to thinking that he could change other people like him. for the fifth time, i don't blame a religious people for doing this to him, i am saying that is what his religion SAYS, and he took it literally because that is his right. kirk murphy was referred to him, and using a cheap psychiatric trick (positive/negative reinforcement), rekers went in turn to claim that he "fixed" kirk and made him straight. find the interview where reporters break the news to rekers that murphy was driven to insanity, and finding no recourse, took his own life. rekers is genuinely sorry. too bad that won't bring back kirk.
i don't say that christians are therefore bad because of rekers. it is plain as can be that he is another gay person whose mind was irrevocably warped BY religion, NOT BY RELIGIOUS PEOPLE. he did not know better in his infancy, when it was inculcated into him that god hates homosexuals, which is an awful LIE. is that finally clear?
i'm sorry reginald, the point that people cannot be independent of their religions is as wrong as can be. people CHOOSE to leave all the time.
i'm also very sorry. i have lurked here for some time, and i have read about the stories about depression and confusion and anger, from some of you in fact, just like the OP. just because some of you have been lucky enough to live in a household where your parents were strong enough to cast off the religious lies (again, not lies told to them by religious people!!!), does not mean there are not hundreds, if not thousands, of children who happen to be gay for whom it IS the case, who are told, BY THEIR RELIGION, that they are an abomination.
do any of you seriously deny that this is an awful lie and needlessly confuses the children, who are already confused by their wakening sexuality? do any of you seriously deny that there are not hundreds of gay adults who have been hopelessly warped by this lie?
i am cognizant of how lucky i was NOT to live in such a household. how lucky i am NOT to be born in saudi arabia or afghanistan, where the penalty for homosexuality is indeed death. it is for that reason that i speak out, reginald. to speak otherwise (i.e., lucky me, my religious community loves me, too bad for those kids it drives to suicide) is immoral.
i have an answer for the OP. like me, he is a primate. he is worth no less than i or any other primate, and is entitled to pursue happiness however he wishes so long as he harms no other, and anyone who says otherwise is lying through their teeth to him. what is your answer, reginald? that he should wait for his religion to "evolve" to accept him? why should he, or other children who are born gay, wait?
Updated On: 8/22/11 at 09:36 PM
bethnor
Broadway Star Joined: 10/15/08
#39Gay Jews
Posted: 8/22/11 at 9:43pm
I had no idea that religious diversity doesn't exist. My mother is Christian (Unitarian) and I have to remember to tell her she's homophobic now.
so what you're saying is, when your mother throws out the teachings of her religion, she embraces you and loves you as your son, as she should do. GOOD, i have no objection.
And someone should tell the Vatican that the progressive changes they have made are completely invalidated.
matt, are you being serious here? imagine how the pressure would ease across the LGBT community if only the pope said, "gays are not abominations. the bible is wrong. they are your brothers and sisters. allow them to marry and live their lives in peace."
bethnor
Broadway Star Joined: 10/15/08
#41Gay Jews
Posted: 8/22/11 at 9:50pm
Yes, that is terrible. It's also terrible that as recently as 45 years ago a white person couldn't marry a person of another race in many states. That right had to be fought for, too. Blame the laws for that.
are you being serious here? are you saying that it was wrong for savage to lead a picket against the mormon church for contributing $8 million to prop 8? and you are aware that there is indeed biblical warrant for blocking interracial marriage, and for a long time the bible was invoked to keep it illegal, for fear of spoiling the original covenant, which is why many individuals still will not marry people of another faith?
As to the rest of your questions, they are clearly rhetorical, thus requiring no answer. And as I've said, I have no interest in having a conversation with someone who isn't actually interested in a discussion, but rather is only seeking a forum to spout off their already well-rehearsed rhetoric. Reg, who has a lot more grace than I do, enumerates many useful points in his post.
for someone who has no interest in answering, you seem to keep answering. and reginald says my points were all true. if they are true, in what sense were my questions rhetorical? well-rehearsed? are you claiming that i knew in advance that you would dare bring up FOR THE BIBLE TELLS ME SO, which is a grisly record of lives irrevocably warped and destroyed by religion (for the umpteenth time, by religion ITSELF, not by religious people!!!) and would be able to "rehearse" my answers? answer the questions if you're "serious" about having an "intellectual discussion."
#42Gay Jews
Posted: 8/22/11 at 9:51pm
I'm sorry, bethnor, I never said anything vaguely like "people cannot be independent of their religions." I said, and I quote, "Bethnor, you're speaking as though a religion exists independent of its followers."
Do you really not see the difference?
I hate to say this, but you argue in such a right-wing fashion. You say the exact opposite of truth as truth and you create motives to your opposition out of whole cloth and expect them to prove you wrong.
Please defend your conjecture of any advice I gave anybody, much less the OP, on how they should deal with their presumed religion.
#43Gay Jews
Posted: 8/22/11 at 9:53pm
And if you brought up Michelle Bachmann utterly independent of your sweeping generalizations about religion and, presumably, everyone from Amish to Zen Buddhist, then your subtlety was lost on me.
I did, in fact, think you were bringing her up as an example of something "religious." I'm glad to hear that wasn't the case.
#44Gay Jews
Posted: 8/22/11 at 9:58pm
"so what you're saying is, when your mother throws out the teachings of her religion, she embraces you and loves you as your son, as she should do."
Actually, what I think he's saying is that his mother embraced the teachings of her religion--which I realize don't coincide with your notions of anyone's religion. But it may be that she feels differently on the matter than you do.
#45Gay Jews
Posted: 8/22/11 at 10:06pm
"reginald says my points were all true"
Actually, I just took for granted that the incidents you cited from the documentary were true. I'm less inclined to do so now.
"are you saying that it was wrong for savage to lead a picket against the mormon church for contributing $8 million to prop 8?"
Can you show me where, exactly, he said that?
#49Gay Jews
Posted: 8/22/11 at 10:13pm
Well seeing as we're so argumentative on this thread, technically it was a quadruple post, Reginald. 
And you know, on paper bethnor's points do make sense - but for anybody who knows/is someone belonging to a religion, it quickly becomes apparent that religions are people too, to paraphrase Mitt Romney, and that nobody is likely to win this debate.
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