Gay Jews

[ahhrealmonsters]

Posted: 8/21/11 at 10:10pm

Many of you are gay and also Jewish. (I assume the latter due to the constant use of Yiddish expressions, in addition to you saying it.) I know there is a big difference between a cultural, Reform Jew and an Orthodox Jew, but:

How do you (or do you) reconcile being both gay and Jewish? We generally hear all the anti-gay babble from the Christian extremists, but what about the Orthodox Jews? I've heard a little- and not to the Sarah Palin/Michele Bachmann extreme... Honestly, I think they (Jews) have more right to say anything than Christians because they don't eat shellfish, pork, etc., and they're not as "pick-and-choose" towards Leviticus laws as the Christians. (I've never heard of a non-shellfish-eating Christian who does it for religious reasons.)

Ok, that's my tangent. Thoughts?

[dramamama611]

Posted: 8/21/11 at 10:22pm

I'm not gay so I can't directly address your questions...but I have one for you: What the heck has dietary restrictions have to do with this?


However, Jews are just cool.


(Also, a lot of the yiddish you hear have become very NY type sayings -- so there MIGHT not be as many here as you suspect.)

[AEA AGMA SM]

Posted: 8/21/11 at 10:27pm

I'm going to assume that the OP is reasoning that those who still follow kosher diets and rules have more right(?) to hold up the rules set forth in Leviticus in their objection to homosexuality, as opposed to those (mainly) Christians who disregard every other rule and admonishment laid down in Leviticus except for those against homosexuality.

[dramamama611]

Posted: 8/21/11 at 10:30pm

ok...I guess that makes a little more sense. Thanks for trying.

Back to the OP...LOTS and LOTS of Jews don't keep kosher.

[ahhrealmonsters]

Posted: 8/21/11 at 10:44pm

AEA- Yes, that is what I meant.
Drama- It is true that many, many Jews don't keep Kosher. But they're generally not Orthodox and not the same people who would condemn homosexuality.

[TheatreFan4]

Posted: 8/21/11 at 10:46pm

Totally read it Gay Jaws...

[thetinymagic2]

Posted: 8/21/11 at 10:48pm

I am not orthodox..my best friend IS, and we're both tolerant and embracing of ALL people. I, however, could not LIVE w/o shellfish...!

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/21/11 at 10:55pm

I'm not Jewish but I'm guessing there are many parallels--it's just that Christians get most of the attention in the media. However, it doesn't seem like the Jewish community is nearly as vocal against gays. No Jewish Fred Phelps or Pat Robertsons.

There certainly have been Jewish leaders in NYC who have railed against gays--esp over the marriage equality victory.

The fact is there are gay friendly synagogues just as there are gay friendly churches. There are many who feel that there are other translations and context for Leviticus and Sodom & Gomorrah and that the Old (and New) Testament is not antigay at all. That's hard for a lot of people to believe when they've been told one thing and/or have the belief that the centuries-old, massively translated and adapted book they hold in their hands is infallible.

Funny enough, my first date in NYC was with an openly gay rabbi.

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 8/21/11 at 11:23pm

dramamama, but are you referring to cultural Jews or practicing Jews- specifically Orthodox Jews as the OP mentioned? I don't consider people who say "Yeah, I'm Jewish because I celebrate Hanukkah with 8 days of presents, but I haven't been inside a temple since my bar mitzvah" to necessarily be an example of the kind of religious practitioners the OP is talking about.

I assumed the OP was referencing the stricter Orthodox communities- the kind that have payots, and live in apartment buildings with elevators that stop at every floor so they don't have to push a button and "work" on the Sabbath, that have their wives wear wigs and thick black stockings and pop out so many kids they need triple strollers- people who DO follow Leviticus to an anachronistic tee.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 8/21/11 at 11:36pm

Despite what you might think of the laws in the Old Testament, Jewish law (halakha) is a fluid and ever-changing tradition and not something rigid.

Halakha has always been based not only on the 613 laws enumerated in the bible (the 613 Mitzvot) but also on the interpretations of those laws in the Talmud and on writings by rabbis over the centuries.

No contemporary Jew follows all 613 Mitzvot, because some of them are laws for things like the proper way to own slaves. Any Jew who claims he or she follows Halakha strictly ends up having some little variations of his or her own.

For instance, one of the 613, which can be found in Deuteronomy 21:18-20, reads: "If someone has a disobedient and defiant son, who does not obey his father or his mother and does not obey them even after they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders of his town in front of his community."

So far so good. A little public humiliation is good for growing children.

"They shall say to the elders of the town: 'Our son is disloyal and defiant. He does not listen to us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.'"

But then, OY!, what mother wants to do what Deuteronomy says, even to her bad, bad boy:

"Then the men of his town shall stone him to death."

As you can imagine, Talmudic scholars over the centuries softened that Mitzvah a little bit.

If you're really interested, I would suggest you visit the website of our gay synagogue in NYC, Congregation Beit Simchat Torah, and read the writings of our lesbian rabbi, Sharon Kleinbaum, who is inspirational and has a great sense of humor.

http://cbst.org/

Updated On: 8/22/11 at 11:36 PM

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 8/22/11 at 1:15am

I think Jews are hot.

[bethnor]

Posted: 8/22/11 at 2:01am

ppl who are homosexual and religious need to WAKE UP and smell the coffee.

there is a very simple explanation for homosexuality that is completely (and needlessly) obfuscated by religion. we are primates. some primates are homosexual. that's all there is to it.

think about all the needless handwringing that would go away if we accept this simple fact. think of all the childhoods that have been needlessly RUINED because we insist on telling lies to our children about where we come from. we are not divine creatures, we are primates, and that's why some of us are gay.

what's more, we are so lucky to live in a time when we have this information. but instead we would throw away the truffle and munch on the wrapper. it makes all questions like, "why would god make so many homosexuals, only to torture and destroy them?' irrelevant but we keep trying to reconcile the way religion flies in the face of the facts.

we should never forget what the religious did when they were strong, when such questions would earn you a nice little bonfire at your feet. the only reason we can have this discussion is because western civilization has defanged it. the ONLY resistance to more education about homosexuality invariably comes from the religious. only the religious obstruct any attempts to relieve bullying of innocent children who are gay (obviously such children will be bullied if religion was muzzled or not. but tell other children that god hates gay children and see how far they can take it, and have, over and over again). who stands squarely athwart gay marriage? what is the stance of the rabbinical authorities on gay marriage now? no umming or ah'ing to that last question, please.

the LGBT community must WAKE UP. religion is not our friend, and will not be in our lifetime. a few decades from now it will apologize for its appalling behavior towards the homosexual community, which should conclusively demonstrate its MANMADE nature.
Updated On: 8/22/11 at 02:01 AM

[Unknown User]

Posted: 8/22/11 at 6:30am

Oy. We should open up THIS can of worms? Let's all have some kugel instead.

[dramamama611]

Posted: 8/22/11 at 8:00am

I'm pretty anti-religion, but I would never berate anyone for their belief in faith -- at any time. I have long believed that if everything I've been taught about god is true, then all "he" wants is for us to lead good lives and be good to those around us. I don't really believe that "he" cares whether we follow a christian, jewish, muslim or buddhist belief.

I mean no sacrilege when I say, I have always felt closest to god in a theatre. It is where I have always felt the most connected to who I am and where I celebrate life.

For those in the gay community that have found ways to have their faith work for them...well, Mazel Tov.

[jacobtsf]

Posted: 8/22/11 at 10:16am

Bethnor- To connect all religions, and all religious people, to the anti-gay nuts is ridiculous. There are many churches and synagogues that are gay friendly (and I don't just mean love the sinner hate the sin, I mean see nothing wrong with being gay). A belief in God and a strong faith have nothing to do with orientation.

While it is true that the "face" of the anti-gay movement is the religious right I beg you to NOT see these people as the face of all religious people. I would argue that most of us are not the nuts portrayed on TV.

Maybe I am just extremely lucky to be in a great church with an amazing pastor who constantly condemns the actions that are done in the name of Christianity, but I so rarely see the madness that is associated with religion. I ask that you not lump us all together, as you would hate it if I lumped all gays together, or any other group for that matter.

[Jane2]

Posted: 8/22/11 at 11:23am

"the kind that have payots, and live in apartment buildings with elevators that stop at every floor so they don't have to push a button and "work" on the Sabbath, that have their wives wear wigs and thick black stockings and pop out so many kids they need triple strollers-"

just wow. and fyi- it's "peyos"

[bethnor]

Posted: 8/22/11 at 12:07pm

I'm pretty anti-religion, but I would never berate anyone for their belief in faith -- at any time.

so you think it's okay if a man "believes" his women (take note, "his") should be covered from head to toe with only a slit for her eyes? do you think it's okay for men to "believe" they can wed little girls who still want dolls for their birthday?

i'm very sorry, but some beliefs are NOT compatible with modern western civilization. as a woman, you MUST know this--even now, the religious right "believes" that women should not have access to control over their reproductive capacities (perry, who is like obama's opponent in 2012, wants to eliminate planned parenthood altogether, so we are forced to choose between that or obama), and you can read about their assault on it EVERY DAY. this "belief" MUST be berated if our civilization is to even stay stable, much less advance, as almost any society where women are denied such access lives in squalor. it HAS to be called out as phoney nonsense meant to chain women to the reproductive cycle of an animal.

To connect all religions, and all religious people, to the anti-gay nuts is ridiculous.

ppl keep doing this. the argument: "it's not religion, it's people using religion badly." i'm very sorry again, but this stance is demonstrably false, and demonstrably so using the following:

leviticus either says homosexuality is an abomination or it doesn't. if it does say this, it is either true, or it isn't. it quite clearly DOES say that, but it is self-evidently NOT TRUE. i am saying that the religion ITSELF (note, not its votaries) is wrong and perpetuates so much needless suffering in the gay community by trying to reconcile these illusions with reality. what you seem to be saying is that, the more your particular religious subset deviates from the founding text, the more humane they are. that is surely a point AGAINST religion, not for it!

[Kad]

Posted: 8/22/11 at 12:15pm

I honestly would rather see religion be reformed, which will undoubtedly come to pass in time. I don't see the issue with that happening. Religion is not going anywhere, ever. It has been a part of human civilization since the get-go.

[AC126748]

Posted: 8/22/11 at 12:29pm

leviticus either says homosexuality is an abomination or it doesn't. if it does say this, it is either true, or it isn't. it quite clearly DOES say that, but it is self-evidently NOT TRUE.


Bethnor, you're assuming then that everyone of the Christian and/or Jewish faith is a biblical literalist, which is inarguably not true. In fact, the people who interpret EVERY WORD of The Bible (or any other foundational religious text) literally is decidedly small. As Kad notes, religion has been around since the beginning of time; however, religious texts have not. It's a relatively new (and generally incorrect) phenomenon--and by "new," I mean the last millennia or so--to base an entire appraisal of religion around one text.

[bethnor]

Posted: 8/22/11 at 12:49pm

Bethnor, you're assuming then that everyone of the Christian and/or Jewish faith is a biblical literalist, which is inarguably not true.

this argument comes up all the time as well, too. if the passage of leviticus is not to be taken literally, than how is it to be taken? metaphorically? what is it a metaphor for? homosexuality is just metaphorically an abomination, is that right? nonsense. these texts MEAN what they SAY, and what they SAY is that homosexuality is an abomination.

why the extraordinary strain to try and make it come out right, when the answer is plain? why do you want to try and reconcile these ancient screeds with modern sensibilities when we have access to a better explanation: these texts are an obvious manmade falsification and needlessly distort the simple TRUTH: we are primates, and you sometimes see homosexuality in primates. and you seem to be making the same point that jacob is making: the more ppl leave behind these ancient texts, the more humane they are! again, this seems to be a point AGAINST religion, not for it! and despite your claim that the "literalists," are small in number, the options for the 2012 election in modern western civilization are "ban gay marriage and force homosexuals to live as second class citizens vs. maybe we'll do something for the LGBT community only after the majority of americans are amenable."

Updated On: 8/22/11 at 12:49 PM

[AC126748]

Posted: 8/22/11 at 12:56pm

why the extraordinary strain to try and make it come out right, when the answer is plain?

Because the answer is NOT plain, and anyone with some brain function knows it.

You're obviously not going to listen to what anyone has to say about this matter, so I'll just end by saying that anyone who believes that a religion boils down to only its text is as ignorant as what they're supposedly campaigning against. I would recommend that you (and everyone, for that matter) watch the excellent documentary FOR THE BIBLE TELLS ME SO, which completely debunks the myth of biblical literalism to which you are clinging in order to make your point seem more valid than it actually is.

[bethnor]

Posted: 8/22/11 at 1:07pm

I would recommend that you (and everyone, for that matter) watch the excellent documentary FOR THE BIBLE TELLS ME SO, which completely debunks the myth of biblical literalism to which you are clinging in order to make your point seem more valid than it actually is.

you are only making my case for me. turns out i HAVE seen it, and all i see is a long documentary of more lives that have been ruined and destroyed by these lies we tell ourselves.

i see a mother who was compelled by her religion to reject her daughter and now only regrets it after her child is dead and gone, when what her daughter needed, as she clearly stated in letter after letter after letter, was her mother's unconditional love. and this isn't the only time. see what it makes us do.

look at cnn, and you can read about how strong the parental instinct naturally is: the parents soldiers who have confessed and are guilty of murdering and raping innocent civilians will still defend their children to the last. he may have murdered, but he's my son, and i know he's a good person, the military changed him. religion does the opposite: if you're an innocent child who turns out to be gay, it drives parents to say, "you're a faggot? GET OUT!" listen to dan savage relate how one of his friends was punched in the face by his father when he came out and dare to tell me there aren't hundreds of such stories going on right now as we speak.

i see a poor pastor who is trying to reconcile his homosexuality with his religion, and confused by it, has turned to alcohol. he cannot reconcile it because they cannot be reconciled that way.

then there's a african-american lesbian pastor, whose father admits that he still thinks it's disgusting, but he wants her to be happy. how about this: he forgets all that religious crap altogether, and love his daughter unconditionally, without having this voice in his head telling him she's a disgusting abomination?

and the documentary plainly shows how you see homosexuality EVERYWHERE in nature, making it PLAIN AS DAY that the truth is out there for us to grasp that makes all this argument go away, but we won't do it.

how is any of this meant to disprove my point? Updated On: 8/22/11 at 01:07 PM

[AC126748]

Posted: 8/22/11 at 1:12pm

To quote Barney Frank...
On what planet do you spend most of your time?

[JerseyGirl2]

Posted: 8/22/11 at 1:13pm

Bethnor, many modern Christians have taken theology classes and understand that the bible has been translated and changed by more hands than one can count. Some take the whole thing with a grain of salt. Spirituality is about faith. Many choose to follow biblical teachings, but many others realize that corruption and centuries have changed or edited whatever truth might have been there.

[bethnor]

Posted: 8/22/11 at 1:19pm

To quote Barney Frank...

i'm very sorry, did you ask me to watch FOR THE BIBLE TOLD ME SO, or not?

in that documentary, did a mother reject her daughter for being a lesbian, or not? did the mother's pastor urge her to try and change her daughter, or not? did the daughter eventually commit suicide, or not? did the father of the african-american lesbian pastor say he is still a little bothered my his daughter's sexuality, or not? did dan savage have a friend, whose father was a pastor, who then punched him in the face when he came out, or not? is the homosexual pastor who only recently was made a pastor now having problems with alcohol, or not?

is the presidential election in 2012 shaping to be "no gay rights at all vs. maybe gay rights if the nation is in the mood" or not?

you can claim that i'm living in a different world, but all of the above points are TRUE.