Harry Potter Book Club - Chapter 16 A Very Frosty Christmas- Page 3

[DawnlikesRent]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 2:24pm

This is very interesting seeing everyone's ideas.
As far as Voldemort being connected to the prime ministers political advesary...I doubt that. Voldemort has been known to get others to do different things for him (SS and GoF). In the end though, when it comes to the important part of the task, he always ends up doing it his self.

When the Prime Minister sees Rufus Scrimgeour he thinks that he can understand why the Wizarding community would prefer to have him in charge in these dangerous times. Do you think that the instinct to put their faith in a tougher leader to protect them from danger is a good one for the Wizarding world?

I don't think that is 100% true. Many people have been wanting Dumbledore in the position of Minister of Magic. Though at times Dumbledore can be stern, I don't think he could ever be characterised as a tough leader. Comparing Scrimgeour to Fudge I do agree that Scrimeour is ten times better as Minister of Magic. The wizarding world is probably thrilled that they have a half way decent Minister of Magic.

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 2:30pm

What do you think is the significance of the domination of the Wizarding world over the Muggle world? Should the Wizarding world have this kind of influence, especially with their insistence on keeping the worlds separate? How does all of this relate to Dumbledore’s ideals of communication and equality?

I read Anjilly and sweetsiren on this but I generally disagree.

The Muggle world is not just treated with disdain by most Wizards, muggles are disrespected and as a consequence of such things as memory modification are never truely able to act in their own best interests.
Muggles are led to believe they have control over their actions and understand what is happening, but most often they do not. As with house elves, goblins, and other "creatures" they are "less important" and less equiped to deal with the "real world" than Wizards. This prejudice and the destructive effect it can have on people is a very real and very destructive thing.

In the chapter the Muggle Prime Minister is informed, in bits, only as the Wizards deem it necessary, and the "president" will be controlled, so he forgets to call. These things imply a much more sinister conotation to me, and one that cannot be set aside easily. The Prime Minister not only has no choice, even if he made a different choice the Wizards could simply modify his memory so nothing they said ever even "happened."

Because Wizards want and respect NO imput from the Muggle world the powers are woefully disproportionate. Which is another thing Dumbledore is against.
Dumbledore is proposing a world of trust and inclusion, the world that exists is one of secrecy and powerlessness.

Muggles are also often 10 to 1 the victims in Wizarding attacks. (As with Wormtail's escape, 12 muggles killed at once. Mass Muggle killings by Voldemort) yet they are never trained or protected, they don't even know what is really happening.

[sweetestsiren]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 2:57pm

Interesting, SP!

The Muggle world is not just treated with disdain by most Wizards, muggles are disrespected and as a consequence of such things as memory modification are never truely able to act in their own best interests.

I agree that there's a lack of respect for Muggles by Wizards, but in general, the Wizarding community doesn't seem to interfere that much in Muggle affairs. Certainly not as much as it could. Things like memory modification could be seen as being in the best interest of the Muggles involved (not that the Wizards involved are necessarily qualified to make that assessment) or to protect the secrecy of the Wizarding world. And that, I think, is absolutely essential. It seems about the worst thing that could happen to the Muggle world to become aware of this subculture of magical humans and animals... it would cause a complete uproar. But, once again, the Wizards are the ones who are aware of the situation, so they have the upper hand in getting to determine these things, and will do so in their best interests.

In the chapter the Muggle Prime Minister is informed, in bits, only as the Wizards deem it necessary, and the "president" will be controlled, so he forgets to call. These things imply a much more sinister conotation to me, and one that cannot be set aside easily.

This is a really good point... this instance in particular sets a mor sinister tone for the chapter. The Prime Minister doesn't have a choice as to whether to meet with the Minister of Magic.

Because Wizards want and respect NO imput from the Muggle world the powers are woefully disproportionate.

They do respect the Muggle world at least enough to let its leaders know what's going on. They could go around his cooperation if they really wanted to, or do something magical to influence him. On the other hand, it's probably easier to have him aware and on their side, so, once again, it could just be the Ministry of Magic doing what seems best for the Wizarding world.

I think that the Wizarding and Muggle powers are woefully disproportionate by default. Unless you think that the worlds should both be known to one another and unite somehow, the one that knows about the other AND has magical powers is bound to have the upper hand. It's not a good situation, but it's not necessarily one for which I would fault the Wizarding community. I think that their actions in regards to other magical creatures are significantly more reprehensible because there isn't the necessity of deception for concealment of the Wizarding world. Updated On: 2/20/06 at 02:57 PM

[Overthemoon6]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 3:02pm

I could see the opponent to the Prime Minister possibly being a wizard in disguise, or at least under the Imperius Curse. We already learned that the Death Eaters are using the Junior Assistant to get to the Prime Minister, Fudge told him that the Junior Assistant was reacting to a poorly performed Imperius Curse, so it doesn't seem unlikely that he would do that to the Prime Minister's opponent as well.

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 3:07pm

Nice points sweetsiren.

It seems to me that the Wizarding world does things that are in their self interest and often inform after the fact. In many ways the Muggle Prime Minster's career has been destroyed by the actions of the wizarding world. Yes they have less power, but by being less powerful and the ones kept in the dark they are put into a postition of great peril. Yes becoming aware of the Magical world would create an uproar, but just as the imperious curse is evil, even if you are using it for good, so to I consider these actions against muggles.

I believe the perfect scenario would be mutual attempts at understanding. Neither side would want it (both sides have their Dursleys or Malfoys) but that is the ultimate real reconciliation.

I also agree that the enslavement of "Magical Creatures" and "Part Humans" is more telling and more reprehensible. In this way too, it is by cooperation and understanding that the answer is reached, not by Wizards trying to force what is "right" onto everyone else.

[Krissy 2]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 3:13pm

Can I discuss the book without rereading it??

By the way, this board is amazing! I love Harry Potter!!!

[yodamarie78]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 3:19pm

Krissy if you would like to discuss without a reread go right ahead. That is why there is a short summary included, to ensure that everyone is able to remember what happens in the chapter in question if they haven't had time to read, or simply can't remember.

Patronus I honestly cannot find the incident you are refering to, so I honestly wouldn't have said the same thing, so go right ahead and recant. Besides why can't it be an evil business man rant? Why go after the poor Librarians? Oops I'm jacking my own thread. Shush Yoda!

[yodamarie78]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 7:29pm

This is the first chapter in the entire series that describes events completely unknown to Harry. What do you think is the significance of having a narrator other than Harry?

First of all I should have worded that question better. Sorry. What do you think is the significance of having these events described from a perspective other than Harry’s?

I agree with most other people on this question. The events described remind the reader of the wider implications of the events in the books. Now that Voldemort is back and out in the open the danger is real for everyone.

We learn in this chapter that events in the Wizarding world have had a profound effect on the Muggle world. The series has indicated in the past that this sort of influence is not new (Grindlewald, the first reign of Voldemort). What do you think is the significance of the domination of the Wizarding world over the Muggle world?

I agree with Penguin on this one. When I was rereading this chapter in preparation I was struck by how much the Wizarding world affects the Muggle world. Muggles are being used by Voldemort and the Death Eaters as pawns in their war. This is nothing new, but even the “good guys” treat Muggles as inferior and have not qualms about interfering with their society. I think that JKR has been leading up to this for a long time, hence sitting on the chapter until now. For example Arthur Weasley is given little or no respect or aid in his work with Muggles and is generally looked down on for trying to protect them.

[Overthemoon6]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 8:06pm

Completely off-topic, but I might write a fanfiction about Ginny's fifth year and her reactions to what is going on during HPB.

Just thought I'd share.

[yodamarie78]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 8:07pm

Had Fudge accepted the reality of Voldemort’s return earlier do you think he would still be Minister of Magic?

To give a short answer, No. I agree with Patronus that even if Fudge had accepted that LV had returned he probably would have been replaced anyway, for allowing LV to return. It’s also entirely possible that no one would have believed Harry even with Fudge behind him. And, as Anjilly said, Fudge “isn’t equipped to deal with such adversity.”

When the Prime Minister sees Rufus Scrimgeour he thinks that he can understand why the Wizarding community would prefer to have him in charge in these dangerous times. Do you think that the instinct to put their faith in a tougher leader to protect them from danger is a good one for the Wizarding world?

I think that Scrimgeour is a better choice for Minister of Magic than Fudge, who proved to be a bumbling fool, however, I don’t think that Scrimgeour is necessarily the best person either. To again quote Anjilly, “Seriously, tough is good, but what we have to remember is that LV isn’t tough per se- he is smart. Dangerously smart. And so the Wizarding world needs a match for that cleverness almost more than they need tough.”

On a side note, I only just realized how hard it is to answer this question without delving into things that happen later. Sorry.

[yodamarie78]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 8:33pm

JLSatUD: I thought it was interesting that it's completly evident that JKR hasn't have every little plot point figured out since the beginning. There are so many little things that point to the US and the terrorism wars and things going on around the world. I was amused by the quote (something like) "waiting for the president of that land across the ocean to call."

I think that this is a very interesting comment, especially since I considered including a question related to the "unknown President." So I'm going to throw out that one and another that occured to me while reading this post.

*New Questions*

Do you think that JKR is referencing the current state of the world or are the things happening in the Wizarding and Muggle worlds (tightening security, looking to tougher leaders, blaming the bad times on the government) typical of a society at war?

I tend to imagine that the "President of a far distant country" who the Prime Minister is waiting to hear from is the US President, but there are no context clues to tell us who is calling. What do you think?

Just for fun: According to the Harry Potter Lexicon, if you look at context clues throughout the series this scene takes place in 1996. John Major was the Prime Minister of the UK and Bill Clinton was the US president.

Okay I'm done for a while. Seriously that "Shush" was directed a me not you!


Harry Potter Lexicon Updated On: 2/20/06 at 08:33 PM

[JLSatUD]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 8:40pm

"Do you think that JKR is referencing the current state of the world or are the things happening in the Wizarding and Muggle worlds (tightening security, looking to tougher leaders, blaming the bad times on the government) typical of a society at war?"

That's a good question. I read it as dealing with what is going on today rather than the typical situation ... but I can see what you mean. While I do agree it talks about times of war or distress in general, I guess I just viewed it as her chance to take a stance on the current state of the world through someone else's "voice."

It changes though, when you take into account that we should be thinking it's 1996. There has been so much world change in the last 10 years that it's almost vital that we put the stories back then. When you take the Internet as it is now out of the picture, it very much changes the way everyone views the world, and it makes the other side of the world a lot further away. A lot of the magic that JKR uses has been created by technology recently. Sure, we don't travel through fire to see people, but we can pop up on a computer screen and have a "face to face" conversation with someone through a video computer link.

[yodamarie78]

Posted: 2/20/06 at 9:33pm

The fact that the chapter most likely takes place in 1996 should not be taken too seriously since I don't think that JKR is generally very strict about exact dates. I just thought it was interesting to note the year.

[Patronus]

Posted: 2/21/06 at 12:38am

Do you think that JKR is referencing the current state of the world or are the things happening in the Wizarding and Muggle worlds (tightening security, looking to tougher leaders, blaming the bad times on the government) typical of a society at war?

I think it's probably a little bit of both. The fact that the book takes place in 1996 may have some relevance, but the things that we as a people have experienced in the last 10 years can't simply "turned off" in order to write an accurate portrayal of previous year. I think Jo Rowling is likely using the old adage, "hind sight is 20-20" and applying all of history in her story in order to make it as realistic as possible - and I don't she's even doing it consciously.

As a people we are all shaped and changed by our times and environment and Jo Rowling is no different.

I tend to imagine that the "President of a far distant country" who the Prime Minister is waiting to hear from is the US President, but there are no context clues to tell us who is calling. What do you think?

Ah, I very much like to picture it as George W. Bush. It makes it a lot easier for the wizards to "make him forget" about the call. Hell, you could probably make him forget about the invention of the telephone in general without using a wand.

That's an entirely different conversation though.

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 2/21/06 at 10:33am

I tend to imagine that the "President of a far distant country" who the Prime Minister is waiting to hear from is the US President, but there are no context clues to tell us who is calling. What do you think?

I think he is vaguely written to were most people, even non-Americans are likely to see him as the US President, and Bush, not Clinton. The idea of Bush and a bit folish and easy to control is a large notion throughout the world.
Although I think it may also be easy for anyone to see this person as "their president" so the first theory may be right out. I do think it is supposed to be "your current leader" you think of, not the leader in 1996.

[yodamarie78]

Posted: 2/21/06 at 12:46pm

I agree with JLSatUD, Penguin, and Patronus. I think we are probably expected to relate the events in this chapter to current events, which is why I place the probable year under "Just for Fun." And the actual reason that I checked to see what year it likely was is that I imagined a contension that Bush has had one too many memory spell cast on him.


Updated On: 2/21/06 at 12:46 PM

[sweetestsiren]

Posted: 2/21/06 at 12:58pm

I think the fans care more about time continuity than Ms. Rowling does, but it's still fun to have dates. Anyway, I too thought that that part could be referring to the President of the United States. The use of the word "President" rather than "Prime Minister" in particular seemed to me to eliminate a lot of countries automatically. On the other hand, I don't see the US as being a "far distant country" from Britain. Ultimately I think it's of pretty small importance, but it's interesting to be able to read it and relate it to your country.
Updated On: 2/21/06 at 12:58 PM

[yodamarie78]

Posted: 2/21/06 at 2:29pm

Just a warning that I'm planning to post the Chapter 2 summary and Questions this evening, look for them around 5 or 6.

So if you have many other burning things to say about The Other Minister don't delay!

Also these questions are intended only as a starting point for discussion, if you have other issues or questions about a chapter please bring them up! I know this is not the most complex, controversial, or interesting chapter in the book. Hopefully all will have more to say about Chapter 2 Spinners End.

Updated On: 2/21/06 at 02:29 PM

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 2/21/06 at 2:37pm

Just a reminder that MOST European and South American countries also call their leader- "President"

[yodamarie78]

Posted: 2/21/06 at 5:20pm

Chapter 2 - Spinner's End

Narcissa Malfoy and Bellatrix Lestrange visit Snape who is sharing a house with Wormtail. Snape answers Bellatrix’s questions regarding his status as a double agent. Narcissa asks Snape to aid Draco in a task Voldemort has set to him. Snape agrees to form an Unbreakable Vow to watch over Draco, protect him, and ultimately carry out his task if it looks as though Draco will fail.

*Discussion Questions

Snape does not appear to fear Voldemort as the other Death Eaters do. Do you agree? Significance?

Does Narcissa truly trust Snape? Or is she playing her own game?

What purpose is there in having Wormtail under Snape's watchful eye? Or is Wormtail the one doing the watching? When Snape goes back to Hogwarts where do you think Wormtail will go?

Is Snape lying to Narcissa and Bellatrix, or being honest? Is he lying to himself? Do you think that Voldemort actually told Snape about Draco’s task? Could he have found out on his own or is he just pretending to know?

Thank you again to Anjilly and Smartpenguin78 for their help with the discussion questions. Updated On: 2/21/06 at 05:20 PM

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 2/21/06 at 6:30pm

Is Snape lying to Narcissa and Bellatrix, or being honest? Is he lying to himself? Do you think that Voldemort actually told Snape about Draco’s task? Could he have found out on his own or is he just pretending to know?

My thought reading this chapter is that Snape is indeed lying to Narcissa and Bellatrix. His tone is utterly dismissive about the whole situation. Although I do believe he knows what the ultimate plan is. I think a large part of this chapter being presented in this way is to show us something about Snape, how he is able to manipulate both Narcissa and Bellatrix, and that he is dominating both the course of the conversation and the driving force to the "Unbreakable Vow" he has his own reasons to make this situation happen. I do not think that Voldemort has "revealed" the plan to him as he wants them to think.

[Overthemoon6]

Posted: 2/21/06 at 7:02pm

Hmmm... I think this is interesting. Relating back to the questions about the first chapter, this is the first time that Rowling has had two consecutive chapters from a point of view besides Harry's. Anyway, back to the questions.

Snape does not appear to fear Voldemort as the other Death Eaters do. Do you agree? Significance?
I think that Snape is aware that, in order to appear confident in his position in Voldemort's inner circle, he has to hide his true feelings for Voldemort. If he seems unsure or nervous, the Death Eaters won't respect him as much. They may not trust him, but as long as Voldemort trusts him, the Death Eaters will respect him. Which is another reason that Snape is so confident; he knows that Voldemort trusts him, and he also knows that the other Death Eaters are aware of this.

Does Narcissa truly trust Snape? Or is she playing her own game?
I think that Narcissa does really trust Snape. As she mentioned, he and Lucius used to be friends (possibly from meeting when they became Death Eaters, or at school, but I think that Rowling alluded to the fact that he really didn't have any friends). And Draco was a favorite of his, so he probably influenced his mother a bit, too.

What purpose is there in having Wormtail under Snape's watchful eye? Or is Wormtail the one doing the watching? When Snape goes back to Hogwarts where do you think Wormtail will go?
THe purpose of having Wormtail under Snape's eye could be for a couple of reasons. (1) Voldemort knows that Wormtail is prone to go back and forth between sides, depending on who seems to be in more power. He likes to have the powerful ally, so Voldemort could've placed him in Snape's charge to make sure that he didn't switch sides if it appeared the good side was winning. Wormtail probably knows too much about the goings on of the Death Eaters. (2) Voldemort could be using Wormtail as a spy to see if Snape really is in the league of the Death Eaters. He could be using the facade that Wormtail is only a helper to Snape, but he could really be giving Voldemort reports on what Snape is doing. or (3) Voldemort could just want Wormtail out of the way so that he doesn't get in the way of Voldemort's plans. Pettigrew has proved that he isn't very powerful or subtle, so giving him to Snape as a helper could get him out of the way while giving Snape someone to help him around his house.

[Overthemoon6]

Posted: 2/21/06 at 10:01pm

Is Snape lying to Narcissa and Bellatrix, or being honest? Is he lying to himself? Do you think that Voldemort actually told Snape about Draco’s task? Could he have found out on his own or is he just pretending to know?
I believe that Snape really does know the plan that Voldemort is
setting up for Draco. He mentions that Voldemort doesn't believe that Draco will be able to do it, and that he plans for Snape to do it in the end, so I think that Snape is aware, not only of the plan, but for his motives of using Draco (revenge for Lucius' mistake, preparing him to become a real Death Eater, etc.).

I forgot that one, so I added it.

[Overthemoon6]

Posted: 2/21/06 at 10:02pm

Is Snape lying to Narcissa and Bellatrix, or being honest? Is he lying to himself? Do you think that Voldemort actually told Snape about Draco’s task? Could he have found out on his own or is he just pretending to know?
I believe that Snape really does know the plan that Voldemort is
setting up for Draco. He mentions that Voldemort doesn't believe that Draco will be able to do it, and that he plans for Snape to do it in the end, so I think that Snape is aware, not only of the plan, but for his motives of using Draco (revenge for Lucius' mistake, preparing him to become a real Death Eater, etc.).

I forgot that one, so I added it.

[Overthemoon6]

Posted: 2/21/06 at 10:02pm

Updated On: 2/21/06 at 10:02 PM