Harry Potter Book Club - Chapter 16 A Very Frosty Christmas- Page 4

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 2/21/06 at 10:06pm

Does Narcissa truly trust Snape? Or is she playing her own game?

I don't think Narcissa trusts Snape at all. He is simply her last alternative, she comes to him out of utter desperation. Not of a game of her own, although it would be interesting to think Voldemort sent her to try to trick Snape into agreeing to help, and therefore ensure his plan might be succeed.
I really think she is actually upset for her son, and that a large part of the purpose of the chapter is to humanize her.

It is important to note here that we usually see these characters from Harry's perspective and in the way they react to him, and here we do not. Narcissa is more real and human than he sees her, I think it is JKR's point that these are people, even these that are wrapped so fully in Voldemort's grip.

Snape is also different, neither sneering, nor sniveling. His command, both of Wormtail and the situation is complete.

For the Wormtail question, he is obviously there for an important or sinister reason.
But Voldemort does not trust Snape completely, and it would not be intellegent for him to put such a weak and untrustworthy figure as Wormtail as a spy on Snape. I think there is a chance Wormtail is there on a special mission, maybe one other than spying that Snape has figured out. (I think his attempt to spy, was on his own accord, he wanted dirt for Voldemort to keep on his good side.)
The "why" of my theory involves some later information.

[Overthemoon6]

Posted: 2/21/06 at 10:17pm

I think that Penguin makes some good points.

Overall, I think Snape is just a really good actor; he can play different parts. Around Harry, James and his crew, and most of the other students, Snape is icy, indifferent and sneering. Around the Slytherins, he is softer (though still strict) and more relenting. Around Dumbledore and Voldemort, Snape is respectful and helpful, and around Narcissa and probably his other companions, he is confident and in command.

Snape is deceptive and he knows how to play to the emotions of the people he is around, which is probably why it is so hard to figure him out.

[anjilly]

Posted: 2/22/06 at 12:48am

I'm going to have to attack this chapter in pieces, so first-

Penguin said:
For the Wormtail question, he is obviously there for an important or sinister reason.

It's really, really, really hard to address this because I have a theory that is related to later chapters. Let's just say there is a certain prophecy from OotP that mentions a hand- and who has a more prominent hand than Wormtail, with his silver magical prize gifted by Lord Moldyshorts.

Snape is totally there to watch over Wormtail, keep him safe and in line- and as an added bonus, I bet Wormtail was told he is helping keep an eye on Snape, too.

[Patronus]

Posted: 2/22/06 at 2:36am

Well said, Penguin.

This chapter shows Narcissa's human and perhaps more importantly motherly side. I wonder if it's setting up or foreshadowing that Narcissa is willing to die to keep Draco safe. Or perhaps more interestingly, willing to betray the Dark Lord to keep her son safe?

Never underestimate the lengths a mother is willing to go to protect her children.

[KelRel]

Posted: 2/22/06 at 8:47am

Snape does not appear to fear Voldemort as the other Death Eaters do. Do you agree? Significance?
I think that Snape is a bit bolder than the other Death eaters because he has the backing of Dumbledore. He feels safe and has faith in Albus' ability to protect him. That being said he is also in a damned if you do, damned if you don't position. He is not happy, he is down right miserable because he is being forced to play both sides and keep up apperences so that neither side suspects the truth. We don't even know the full truth. Snape is doing what he thinks he has to do right now, and that is really all he can do.

Does Narcissa truly trust Snape? Or is she playing her own game?
Narcissa doesn't trust anyone. She is desperate and needy and Snape is her last hope. Now that Lucius is gone Snape is the closest thing that Draco has to a father. Draco realizes this too, I'm sure and is rebelling against everone around him to keep from admitting that he is scared. He wants to fill in for his father, but he can't, he's just a boy. Everyone else is able to see this and realize it, thus Narcissa begs Snape for help. Even as she begs him she doesn't trust him. She doesn't begin to trust him until he agrees to take the unbreakable vow.

What purpose is there in having Wormtail under Snape's watchful eye? Or is Wormtail the one doing the watching? When Snape goes back to Hogwarts where do you think Wormtail will go?
I think that Wormtail is A LOT more competent than we realize and I think that he is watching Snape. Snape realizes it and that is why he is so mean to Wormtail and bosses him around. Wormtail, while smart and sneaky, is also very weak and skittish so Snape uses that to have some control somewhere in his life. I think that that is also why Snape is so mean and bossy at Hogwarts. He takes out his lack of control on those weaker than him. It is his outlet for his agression and frustration. I think that Wormtail will go back to Voldemort after Snape returns to Hogwarts.

Is Snape lying to Narcissa and Bellatrix, or being honest? Is he lying to himself? Do you think that Voldemort actually told Snape about Draco’s task? Could he have found out on his own or is he just pretending to know?
I think that Voldemort told him. Voldemort is horribly intelligent and he knows that even if Snape is playing both sides that he would have to make the unbreakable vow before Bellatrix and Narcissa would trust him and by doing so he would be forced to carry out the plan. Again, damned if you do damned if you don't.

[RENThead414]

Posted: 2/22/06 at 10:06am

random question (sorry to thread-jack!): if you were to use Veritaserum on a Secret Keeper (obviously under the Fidelius Charm), would they have to tell you the secret if you asked them? (my guess is no, but I figured I'd get some other opinions)

[sweetestsiren]

Posted: 2/22/06 at 10:59am

I have to run so I don't have very much time (I'll respond to other things later), but quickly:
if you were to use Veritaserum on a Secret Keeper (obviously under the Fidelius Charm), would they have to tell you the secret if you asked them? (my guess is no, but I figured I'd get some other opinions)

I'm fairly sure that the Secret-Keeper would have to voluntarily admit the secret for it to be gotten out of them in any way. That's why it's such a powerful/important spell. Veritaserum seems pretty rare but certainly not unattainable if you know the right people, so I doubt that breaking the Secret-Keeper enchantment would be as easy as slipping the person some.

[kelzama]

Posted: 2/22/06 at 12:47pm

Veritaserum is not infallible, as JK Rowling states on her web site. My bet goes for the fidelius charm to be more powerful than veritaserum.

[yodamarie78]

Posted: 2/22/06 at 1:09pm

I also don't think that Veritaserum would be able to make a Secret Keeper tell the secret. And on that subject I'd like to throw out another...

Just for Fun: JKR updated her website to answer the newest FAQ Poll question which just happens to be about the Fidelius Charm. The question is "What happens to a secret when the Secret-Keeper dies?" and to keep this spoiler free you can find the answer at this following link.
JKR FAQ

[RENThead414]

Posted: 2/22/06 at 3:12pm

lol yeah, I read that yesterday and then this morning I was thinking, and my question came up in my head :)

[yodamarie78]

Posted: 2/22/06 at 4:12pm

Ah, I wondered if that might be the the reason.

Keep up the good discussion folks. I promise to post some actual on-topic comments this evening after I get home from class.

[Overthemoon6]

Posted: 2/22/06 at 6:59pm

So then, what about if the Secret Keeper is put under the Imperius Curse? Do you think that it would be the same? If someone used Occlumency against them?

I have another question about this charm; Is it easy to change the secret Keepers? I think that it was mentioned that Sirius was the first secret keeper for the Potters, but then Sirius convinced them to use Wormtail. So, how would that work? Did they have to erase Sirius' memory? Or am I wrong, and he was never the Secret Keeper, he was supposed to be, but said Peter should do it instead?

[yodamarie78]

Posted: 2/22/06 at 10:40pm

It is important to note here that we usually see these characters from Harry's perspective and in the way they react to him, and here we do not. Narcissa is more real and human than he sees her, I think it is JKR's point that these are people, even these that are wrapped so fully in Voldemort's grip.

That is a very good point Penguin. I think seeing this side of Narcissa, extends the point made in OotP, when Sirius says, "the world isn't split into good people and Death Eaters." (p. 302 paperback ed.) It is another chance to make the point of the shades of grey involved. Narcissa may or may not be a Death Eater, but she obviously loves her son and husband.

This chapter is incrediably well crafted, it allows a chance to see why LV still trusts Snape, but there is still doubt. Is he on Dumbledore's side or Voldemort's. It's still entirely ambiguous.

What purpose is there in having Wormtail under Snape's watchful eye? Or is Wormtail the one doing the watching?

I agree with Anjilly that there is some mutual spying going on here.

Let's just say there is a certain prophecy from OotP that mentions a hand- and who has a more prominent hand than Wormtail, with his silver magical prize gifted by Lord Moldyshorts.

Wow, I never thought about it that way. That is a good way to bring the silver hand into the equation. Dumbledore said in PoA that Wormtail is now in Harry's debt after Harry saved his life, so I'm pretty much certain that Wormtail has a big part to play before the end of book 7. The hand having a part in the prophecy would fit into that perfectly.

[RENThead414]

Posted: 2/22/06 at 11:38pm

I'm fairly sure that what they meant was that Sirius was the first CHOICE to be the Potter's Secret Keeper, but then at the last minute (before the charm was actually performed), the Potters took Sirius's advice and switched to Wormtail (that scumbag...)

[Overthemoon6]

Posted: 2/22/06 at 11:42pm

That part was a tad unclear; it made it seem like Sirius had already been the secret keeper, but then they changed it.

When is chapter 3 going to be up?

[yodamarie78]

Posted: 2/22/06 at 11:52pm

"When is chapter 3 going to be up?"

When the discussion of this vitally important chapter is exhausted.

What would everyone's preference be? I can post Chapter 3 tomorrow if everyone feels like we've finished Chapter 2. Along those same lines, would people prefer to move to a chapter a day format or stick to approximatly 2 days per chapter. My plan is to not post any new chapters on weekends to give people time to catch up.

[Patronus]

Posted: 2/22/06 at 11:54pm

If it were totally up to me, I'd prefer a chapter ever other day (or longer if the conversation is still flowing) with the questions being posted in the early morning.

[Overthemoon6]

Posted: 2/22/06 at 11:55pm

A chapter every other day sounds great.

[yodamarie78]

Posted: 2/23/06 at 8:16am

So we'll be going with a chapter every other day, summaries and questions to be posted in the mornings. Look for Chapter 3 tomorrow around 8 AM EST. To tide you over until then consider these follow up questions.

*Discussion Questions*

Do you think Narcissa is a Death Eater? Why or why not?

Bellatrix declares that if she had sons she would gladly give them up in service of Voldemort. Is she grandstanding or do you think she really would?

We’ve seen three mothers in action in the Harry Potter series, Petunia Dursley, Molly Weasley, and now Narcissa Malfoy. What do you think JKR is saying about parenting styles with these contrasting figures?

[KelRel]

Posted: 2/23/06 at 11:29am

Do you think Narcissa is a Death Eater? Why or why not?
I think that Narcissa is not a Death Eater, but is more like a Mob wife. She is stuck in the middle. She loves her family, but doesn't always love what they do. She has suffered greatly for this cause and doesn't want those sacrifices to be in vain. I think that is why she seeks Snape out. She wants to make sure that she isn't going to lose her husband and her son. I think that she could very easily be pulled into be a Death eater if it would save her family.

Bellatrix declares that if she had sons she would gladly give them up in service of Voldemort. Is she grandstanding or do you think she really would?
I think that Bellatrix is nuts. I wouldn't put anything past her. That being said I think that she says this mainly to push Narcissa over the edge and into accepting that Draco would be involved no matter what she wanted. If she wanted to protect him she would have to support him.

We’ve seen three mothers in action in the Harry Potter series, Petunia Dursley, Molly Weasley, and now Narcissa Malfoy. What do you think JKR is saying about parenting styles with these contrasting figures?
You see the spoiling, the good, and then the powerless. Dudley gets whatever he wants and controls his parents by his outbursts. Dudley is useless because he bases his power on being able to control his parents. That isn't going to do him much good in the real world. Mrs. Weasley is a wonderful mother. She cares for her children, but doesn't let them get away with being troublemakers, well she tries not to anways...She holds them responsible for their actions, yet still is there to console them when they need it. Because of her mothering they are able to choose right from wrong and realize that if they want something done that they had better be willing to put the work into it. She is also a fierce defender of her family. I wouldn't want to cross Molly Weasely.

There there is Narcissa, she has no control over Draco. His father raised him to be just as nasty, evil and as much of a bigot as he is. He loathes anyone who isn't a pureblood and thinks that everyone should bow down to him. He thinks that because of who his father is he can get away with anything. His mother is never considered. I think that this is why we never meet his mother in the earlier books. He has no use for her, thus her pleading for him not to take on this task and to stay out of harm's way is ignored. She can not control her own son so she has to hand over the parenting/protecting reigns to another male in Draco's life.

I think that JKR is trying to show that there needs to be a balance of permissivness and control as a parent, and in many other things as well. No good can come from staying on just one end of the spectrum. You need a balance.

[pndmnd]

Posted: 2/23/06 at 11:33am

Do you think Narcissa is a Death Eater? Why or why not?

I think that the chances of Narcissa NOT being a DE are pretty slim, considering her husband and her sister are both quite loyal. I do think, however, that she is perhaps a little more humane than her husband and sister, and became joined up because she was influenced by them. It's sort of like the good teenager who ends up with the bad group of kids. Remember (from OotP) that Bellatrix and Narcissa have another sister (Andromeda) who is Tonks' mother, and was also removed from the Black Family Tree. To me, this implies that there is the chance that she is not as evil as Bellatrix.

Bellatrix declares that if she had sons she would gladly give them up in service of Voldemort. Is she grandstanding or do you think she really would?

I think she is so sure of this superiority, and that Voldemort will end up in power, that she would hand over her children to him. However, that's a lot easier for her to say when she doesn't have sons to hand over.

We’ve seen three mothers in action in the Harry Potter series, Petunia Dursley, Molly Weasley, and now Narcissa Malfoy. What do you think JKR is saying about parenting styles with these contrasting figures?

Family (and specifically a mother's) love is a huge part of this series. It's was Lily's love that saved Harry. I think that showing these women protecting their children is showing that, no matter how they appear to the outside, their love for their children takes priority over all else. When it comes down to it, they would do anything to protect their children (just like Lily did).

[KelRel]

Posted: 2/23/06 at 11:37am

Family (and specifically a mother's) love is a huge part of this series. It's was Lily's love that saved Harry. I think that showing these women protecting their children is showing that, no matter how they appear to the outside, their love for their children takes priority over all else. When it comes down to it, they would do anything to protect their children (just like Lily did).

How on earth did I not think of that....very good point. I think that I just got an idea as to how it all might go down now. PM me if you want to know...

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 2/23/06 at 11:41am

I love the new questions Yoda!
Kel and pnd, those points are wonderful close to what I was thinking, but also very though provoking. I hope to have the chance to answer this evening.

[sweetestsiren]

Posted: 2/23/06 at 12:59pm

Okay, I finally have time to join in late on the discussion of this chapter (having midterms will do that, I guess). A lot of what I think has been expressed by other people, but I just want to comment on what a few of you have said.

smartpenguin said:
It is important to note here that we usually see these characters from Harry's perspective and in the way they react to him, and here we do not. Narcissa is more real and human than he sees her, I think it is JKR's point that these are people, even these that are wrapped so fully in Voldemort's grip.

I agree! That's what makes this chapter so interesting... we've started to move more into shades of gray with the characterizations. Yes, they're the bad guys, but you get the sense that at least a few of them are with Voldemort because they got caught up with him and didn't have a choice. Narcissa isn't a nice person, and I'm sure she believes that Mudbloods are scum, etc., but she's not incapable of love. One of the most interesting things to me was to see the way that Bellatrix, who up until now has been absolutely horrible, is characterized in this chapter. She's still venemous, but is made more human... you can at least sense her affection for Narcissa and her intense fear of upsetting Voldemort. The fact that they use nicknames for one another was an interesting detail. It's almost uncomfortable to get such a casual look at the people who've done such evil things in the other books.

pndmnd said:
Family (and specifically a mother's) love is a huge part of this series. It's was Lily's love that saved Harry. I think that showing these women protecting their children is showing that, no matter how they appear to the outside, their love for their children takes priority over all else. When it comes down to it, they would do anything to protect their children (just like Lily did).

This is a really great point. The mothers in this series, despite everything else, are shown to be extremely loyal to their children-- Lily to Harry, Mrs. Weasley to her children, Narcissa to Draco, Petunia to Dudley, even more minor examples like Barty Crouch's wife to their son. In face, I can't really think of an exception to this rule right now. I think that Bellatrix underestimates the power of a mother's love for her child, and if she actually had children then I think she would reconsider her bold statement that she would gladly sacrifice them.

re: everything about Snape.... I honestly have no idea. I can't get a read on him at all during this chapter. Narcissa doesn't trust him at all but, as other people have pointed out, he was a last resort. This chapter left me hopelessly torn on what his motives are or where his loyalties lie. Which was, I think, part of the point.

So, I don't know whether this can really be discussed now or if we'll have to think about it later in the book in retrospect, but: what is the primary point of this chapter? Is it informational to give us info about Draco's task and/or Snape's return to Voldemort, or to develop more three-dimensional characterizations of some of the bad guys? Or both? It's clearly an important chapter to warrant the perspective change. About the perspective change... in the last chapter, I think it's pretty clear that the intention was to expand the scope and show that the fight against Voldemort is of universal importance, but this chapter zeroes in on characters that we haven't really encountered up-close before. We've gotten glimpses into Voldemort's side, but it's previously always been through some plot device (dream, pensieve, memory). It's just harder to figure out the motive for the perspective switch with this chapter than it was with the chapter 1. Did Rowling run out of plot devices to convey the information that we get in this chapter, or just feel that they are not needed? Updated On: 2/23/06 at 12:59 PM

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 2/23/06 at 1:50pm

Do you think Narcissa is a Death Eater? Why or why not?
No I don't actually think Narcissa is a "Death Eater," even though Lucious is (and remember at this point we don't know about Draco ) I think it takes more commitment than she has given to Voldemort himself to be a "Death Eater." As pnd metiomned there seems to be a spectrum of adherence to evil amoung the three sisters. Narcissa strikes me as one of the people who hold very evil beliefs, but are not actual Death Eaters. I don't see her as innocently as Kel, though. I think she chose this life because she thinks it is right, and supports the Death Eaters around her. In the end though her loyalty does not seem to lie with Voldemort, but rather to family, which is an important distinction.

Bellatrix declares that if she had sons she would gladly give them up in service of Voldemort. Is she grandstanding or do you think she really would?

Yes, I think she would. I believe that this is a key contrast to Narcissa, Belatrix is so committed to Voldemort that ANYTHING he might ask she is willing to do. That she would do this even if it meant destroying her own family, is the antitheseis to the good and JKR's main themes.
Although again I think siren makes a great point, even Bellatrix is not without the capacity to love. Somehow even with her horrid deeds in this chapter (the fox) she too is humanized. No one is purely evil, there are just those who don't choose love.

We’ve seen three mothers in action in the Harry Potter series, Petunia Dursley, Molly Weasley, and now Narcissa Malfoy. What do you think JKR is saying about parenting styles with these contrasting figures?
All three responses to this question have been fabulous!

I absolutely agree with what Kel said. The point seems to be that in parenting there needs to be a balance of permissiveness and disipline. This is evident from the begining with the differences in how the Dursleys treat Harry and Dudley. One far too strictly, the other with sickening spoilage.

The Malfoys though seem a "rule by force" bunch, there are rules, expectations and power plays to every moment. The idea that your child is your tool to mold into whatever you want seems at play. Callous, unloving, and painful parenting has created a like child. Although the importance that a mother's love, can break these bondaries should not be overlooked. Narcissa Malfoy has the ability to break the spell over Draco.

Petunia has the dispicable behavior of Dudley on her hands. The way she has doted on him seems rooted in what she thinks is love. And his emergence as a bully with little respect for others is of course a direct result of this pampering. Once again there are signs that Petunia and Dudley can be redeemed. That she actually insituted the diet was one huge step. Love is not sappy and ridiculous, love does not produce a child "who finally accomplished what he had always been threatening to do, become as wide as he was tall."

Molly Weasley is of course the sybol- the MOTHER. The one with balance, with love and with control. Even here though I love that there is no such thing as "perfection" she overreacts to some of Fred and George's antics and seems to take Ginny for granted at times. Also it is important to note that sometimes (Percy) the child will drift away no matter what. Yet, there is just such warmth and openness of affection that it is impossible to think that she is anything other than the center. The one whose arms and house are open- no matter how little she has, to all those who need her.

I love the other mentions of Mother's that siren brought up. Each of those examples points us closer to the centrality of this question. It also raises another, What do we think of the use of a mother's love for evil? Harry's mother gave her life to save him. Basically Crouch's mother gave her life to save her son, but he in turn is the reason for the retuen of Voldemort. The greatest act of individual love is shown to have the potential for great consequences.