Harry Potter Book Club - Chapter 16 A Very Frosty Christmas- Page 5

[yodamarie78]

Posted: 2/23/06 at 7:15pm

I think that Narcissa is not a Death Eater, but is more like a Mob wife.

KelRel, I love this description! That is exactly the right way to describe Narcissa's position. I also agree with Penguin and Siren, that she probably agrees with Voldemort's ideals, but isn't an official Death Eater. She's probably similar to Sirius's parents, who thought LV had the right idea, but weren't willing to go as far as he was down the evil path.

Bellatrix declares that if she had sons she would gladly give them up in service of Voldemort. Is she grandstanding or do you think she really would?

I included this question mostly because while I think she is just crazy enough to be willing to do anything for LV, I don't think she is in a position to say since she doesn't have children.

No one is purely evil, there are just those who don't choose love.

I just want to pull this quote out Penguin because I think it really describes the point JKR is trying to make with this chapter. I really think that is one of the biggest reasons that this chapter is included and told from a perspective other than Harry's.

Did Rowling run out of plot devices to convey the information that we get in this chapter, or just feel that they are not needed?

Siren, aside from the reason I noted above, I think that JKR is giving her readers a chance to see all of the evidence and decide for themselves whether he is evil. In this chapter we see why LV trusts Snape and per my own rules I can't finish this sentence, stay tuned!

pndmnd: Family (and specifically a mother's) love is a huge part of this series. It's was Lily's love that saved Harry. I think that showing these women protecting their children is showing that, no matter how they appear to the outside, their love for their children takes priority over all else. When it comes down to it, they would do anything to protect their children (just like Lily did).

KelRel: I think that JKR is trying to show that there needs to be a balance of permissivness and control as a parent, and in many other things as well. No good can come from staying on just one end of the spectrum. You need a balance.

Between these two and the other answers given so far I don't think I have anything else to say.

I forgot to add when I posted the newest questions that the Mothers question was written by Smartpenguin. Thank you!

[yodamarie78]

Posted: 2/24/06 at 8:27am

Chapter 3 Will and Won’t

Dumbledore arrives on Privet Drive to escort Harry to the Burrow after Harry has only been there a fortnight. Dumbledore informs Harry that Sirius left him all of his possessions including his house. They use Kreacher to ensure that there are no obstacles in the way of ownership of the house passing to Harry. Kreacher is then sent to live at Hogwarts. Dumbledore asks the Dursleys to allow Harry to return to their house one more time next summer to afford him the protection he gets from calling their house his home. Harry and Dumbledore send Harry’s trunk ahead to the Burrow and depart.

*Discussion Questions*

Harry is obviously not convinced that Dumbledore will come to get him.Why do you think he doubts him? How does this illustrate the way Harry has changed over the course of the series?

What is the significance of Dumbledore himself coming to Privet Drive to get Harry?

Do you think Dumbledore and Petunia have had ongoing communication? About what?

How does Harry’s attitude in this chapter compare to the first chapter in OotP?

As usual thank you to Anjilly and Smartpenguin78 for their help with the questions.

[Patronus]

Posted: 2/24/06 at 9:48am

I am way groggy this morning, so these answers are probably going to suffer a little bit.

Harry is obviously not convinced that Dumbledore will come to get him. Why do you think he doubts him? How does this illustrate the way Harry has changed over the course of the series?

I think there is still a little bit of resentment from the way that Dumbledore completely separated himself from Harry for most of book 5.

As someone who is still grieving over the loss of a loved one, I think Harry may be depressed and might feel guilty to get excited about something. It's a lot for a kid to deal with, even Harry Potter, and it can only be expected that he'd be a little doubtful that he is going to finally have some happiness.

I think this is just an aspect of Harry growing up.

What is the significance of Dumbledore himself coming to Privet Drive to get Harry?

Likely to protect Harry in these dangerous times. I did find it interesting that the rules clearly stated that people shouldn't be out after dark, yet Dumbledore didn't arrive to pick him up until 11:00 pm. Also, there were the business aspects of the trip that needed to be attended to that only Dumbledore would be appropriate to handle.

Not to mention the overall joy as a reader when Dumbledore harasses the Dursleys.

Do you think Dumbledore and Petunia have had ongoing communication? About what?

Not necessarily on going communication, but I think they may have communicated prior to taking in Harry. I think it's possible that Petunia is more connected to the wizarding world than we know. Perhaps her resentment toward Lily is that Petunia is a squib?

How does Harry’s attitude in this chapter compare to the first chapter in OotP?

He is certainly more sullen in the opening here. I think he's dealt with a lot of loss and sorrow for a kid and it's starting to take his toll. The lack of communication after the Tri-Wizard tournament clearly annoyed Harry to the point that he felt the need to lash out months of frustration all at once. After Sirius' death, this was more of a grieving period for Harry and I think he was ready to move on with life and get back with his friends.

[anjilly]

Posted: 2/24/06 at 12:12pm

"What happens to a secret when the Secret-Keeper dies?"

I'm way late on this question (sorry!), but I really want to weigh in on this.

Based on JKR's answer, I wonder how many buildings, locations, or PEOPLE are "lost" to the world forever- existing but unseen- because the secret keeper is dead and there is no one else in on the secret. This really ups the ante on just how powerful the Fidelius Charm is.

Think about this: we know of at least two instances of the Fidelius Charm in use: the Potter house in Godric's Hollow and Order HQ at Grimmauld Place. Specifically on the Potter House in Godric's Hollow, we know this:

- Peter Pettigrew is the secret keeper.
- James, Lily, Harry were part of the protection, so they knew where the house is/ was
- Who else knew? Voldemort, because Peter told him. But no one else knows- Hagrid and Sirius both showed up outside the house but didn't go inside.

So unless Wormtail tells other people where the Potter house is, only he, Harry, and Voldemort could ever find it/ enter.

[pndmnd]

Posted: 2/24/06 at 2:57pm

I don't really have many comments on this chapter right now--maybe when I've had some caffeine I'll have more, but here are a few thoughts:

Harry is obviously not convinced that Dumbledore will come to get him.Why do you think he doubts him? How does this illustrate the way Harry has changed over the course of the series?

Harry has had a lot of trauma and dissapointment in his life. Losing Sirius not only means that he is grieving the death of someone he loves, but also grieving for the life that he had started to look forward to. As long as Sirius was alive, there was the hope that he would be cleared and Harry could live with him. After being dissapointed so many times (including last summer when he felt completely forgotten about), he probably didn't want to get his hopes up, unly to be dissapointed again (as is mentioned in the chapter).

What is the significance of Dumbledore himself coming to Privet Drive to get Harry?

First of all, I think that this chapter is primarily exposition. I actually think that most of this book is rising action for the next book which will hold the ultimate climax of the series, but more on that later! Part of Dumbledore himself coming, though, is that it's a way for Dumbledore to let Harry know that he is on his side, does care about him, and is sorry about how he handled the previous year (and how he had kept his distance from Harry). Also, Dumbledore is the one that Voldemort is the most afraid of, so it makes sense for him to be the one to escort the boy that Voldemort most wants to kill. It's also necessary for Dumbledore to come so he can talk with the Dursleys, since he is the one with a previous relationship with Petunia.

Do you think Dumbledore and Petunia have had ongoing communication? About what?

Based on where we are right now I'm going to say no, they haven't, except for the initially letter that Dumbledore left and the howler that he sent in OotP.

How does Harry’s attitude in this chapter compare to the first chapter in OotP?

In OotP, Harry had seen his classmate die, but lashed out in anger. In HBP, Harry is more sad and depressed. I think it's just another stage of grieving. HBP starts right after Sirius' death, but in OotP Harry had time to go through some of the other stages of grief. He had possibly gone through the sadness and depression earlier that summer. The loss of Sirius is also much more devestating to Harry than the loss of Cedric, due to the difference in their relationships.

[KelRel]

Posted: 2/24/06 at 3:06pm

Harry is obviously not convinced that Dumbledore will come to get him.Why do you think he doubts him? How does this illustrate the way Harry has changed over the course of the series?

I think that his doubt is going to end up playing a very large role. It seems like a small thing, but I don't think that it is. Remember in CoS when Harry had enormous faith in Dumbledore and beacuse of it he was given the sword of Gryffindore by Fawkes which ended up saving not only his, but Ginny's life. Harry's loss of faith may end up costing lives. Harry doubts Dumbledore because he ignored Harry during most of OotP and because I think that in Harry's eyes he "let" Sirius die. He wasn't there to save him and I don't think that Harry can deal with much more disapointment and letdowns in his life. Because of this it is easier for him to think that Dumbledore won't come for him.

What is the significance of Dumbledore himself coming to Privet Drive to get Harry?

I think that it is important that Dumbledore did come in person to get Harry because he is able to have more of an impression upon Petunia and the rest of the Dursleys, and of course Harry, too.

Do you think Dumbledore and Petunia have had ongoing communication? About what?

I think that Dumbledore and Petunia have been in communication. the Dursley's knew the Hogwarts seal in SS, Mr. Dursley even talked to Hagrid like he knew who Dumbledore was. The Dursley's knew what they had gotten involved with and I think that that was one of the main reasons that they were so against magic. They have had some huge responsibilities rested upon them and they think that if they can treat Harry as if he is nothign special then he would never know about who or what he was. Now that it is too late for that I think that Petunia and the rest of the family are coming to terms with what they must do. Remember there has always been something about being with them that has protected Harry and that Harry has always had to go back to live with them for a least a few weeks each summer. There is MUCH more going on here than what we have been shown so far...

How does Harry’s attitude in this chapter compare to the first chapter in OotP?

I am getting books confused and I am just rereading this one...can't answer with out looking sorry!

[Overthemoon6]

Posted: 2/24/06 at 7:45pm

Harry is obviously not convinced that Dumbledore will come to get him. Why do you think he doubts him? How does this illustrate the way Harry has changed over the course of the series?
I think that the fact that Harry doubts Dumbledore will come to fetch him sort of shows that Dumbledore isn't as much of a role model or hero to Harry any more; in the previous years, Harry always took it for granted that Dumbledore would make everything all right, but perhaps because Dumbledore distanced himself from Harry so much in OotP, Harry has lost some faith in him. I think Harry also realizes that Dumbledore isn't as perfect as he seems; Harry saw how truly old and tired Dumbledore was in OotP, and I think that frightens him a little bit, much like when one of us waits to meet our favorite actor outside the stage door, and they let us down by coming out and being rude and obnoxious, and we lose some of that idol mentality. Harry sees that Dumbledore is flawed, and so he begins to see that he can't look up to him as much anymore.

What is the significance of Dumbledore himself coming to Privet Drive to get Harry?
Dumbledore coming to get Harry was important because he had to speak with the Dursleys, and perhaps warn them a little that the Wizarding world is at war. He didn't outright say it, but I think by coming to fetch Harry himself, he gave the Dursleys a sense that it's not really safe anymore. That was just the feeling that I got.

Do you think Dumbledore and Petunia have had ongoing communication? About what?
I agree with Patronus on this one, although I think that J.K. stated that Lily was the only magical one in her family, making it impossible for Petunia to be a squib. She also mentioned, in The Sorcerer's Stone I think, that Lily would come home and turn teacups into animals and such, and that her parents were delighted. This seems to me like they were delighted because they couldn't do magic, and it was all sort of wonderous to them (although I could be wrong about that, and they could've been delighted that she was doing so well in her magic). I'm assuming Lily could only do this in her seventh and possibly sixth year because she wouldn't have been seventeen yet, unless that was a new requirement they made after Lily's time at Hogwarts.

[Atrias]

Posted: 2/24/06 at 7:47pm

How does Harry’s attitude in this chapter compare to the first chapter in OotP?

I, for one, welcome Harry's change in attitude. OotP presented him as a whiny, self-absorbed kid, whose "Why me?" attitude was quite annoying. Though Sirius's death was a traumatic event for Harry, I think it opened his eyes to the bigger picture. He knows that wallowing isn't going to make the situation any better, and so has a more mature outlook on the future.

(Sorry if that skips into later chapters!)

[Overthemoon6]

Posted: 2/24/06 at 7:48pm

That is true, and I would give the quote that exemplifies that statement, but it is getting into later chapters, so I'll refrain.

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 2/25/06 at 11:36am

Harry is obviously not convinced that Dumbledore will come to get him. Why do you think he doubts him? How does this illustrate the way Harry has changed over the course of the series?

I think that his doubt is going to end up playing a very large role. It seems like a small thing, but I don't think that it is.

Kel, I can't see this (unless you are talking about how you might see this book if you have not read the rest of it. I am pretty sure Harry remains "Dumbledore's man" in the text. ) Harry no longer has Blind Faith in Dumbledore, he now knows Dumbledore does fail sometimes, but this is far from a bad thing. He has learned that even the greatest of Heroes can make mistakes, that we are ALL human, and therefore HE can in fact do this job.

Dumbledore is still his idol, but now he can see that Dumbledore is not this exalted King, he is his Friend, and that is a much more important person to be. This is what gives him greater courage and the ability to continue. I do think Harry is doubting Dumbledore a bit more before he shows up, because he thinks Dumbledore might hold him accountable for rushing off to the ministry.

How does Harry’s attitude in this chapter compare to the first chapter in OotP?
I find a quite different take on this than Patronus and pnd at least. Much more like Atrias stated, this is a welcome and I feel VERY significant change in the person that Harry is.

I think he is more depressed than angry, not because of grief stages or the time since and significance of the loss. He is no longer the angry, screaming, unlikeable person he was in OotP because he has grown through that experience, and he now understands at least some of why all this is happening to him. He is still upset because he feels Fate has forced this upon him (and Cedric, his parents, and Sirius as well) but he now feels he is connected, that he is not a victim.

What is the significane of Dumbledore himself coming to Privet Drive?

Harry is no longer "anyone" and the special relationship Dumbledore feels with him, and his special place in the world are now open between them. Dumbledore comes to seal that trust, and for the "special mission" he mentions in the letter. No one else can teach Harry what must be taught any longer. Also I think he wanted to deliver another message to the Dursleys, he finds them important, because they are the Muggle version of the imbeciles he is fighting in the ministry. He wants to force them to see through their racism, and understand the basics of courtesy and love.

[KelRel]

Posted: 2/25/06 at 11:44am

SP, his faith in Dumbledore brought fawkes when Dumbledore is nowhere around. Fawkes didn't die, others that would help those who believed in what Dumbledore is trying to do are still around, too. Harry needs to have faith in a "higher good".

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 2/25/06 at 11:48am

I can not disagree more that that good is Dumbledore the person. I think there is much evidence in this book that we can not go into.
The good he needs to accept is LOVE.

ETA: Also that is why I said Blind Faith is the problem. Not Faith itself. He must not think Dumbledore is perfect. He remains committed to him WITH his faults, it is an important distinction.

EATA: Of course I may be totally wrong, and you right. That is one of the joys of the books. Multiple interpretations.

Updated On: 2/25/06 at 11:48 AM

[KelRel]

Posted: 2/25/06 at 4:46pm

I agree SP, I love how many different theories can be developed from the same story line.

[yodamarie78]

Posted: 2/25/06 at 7:29pm

Just a reminder that there will be no new chapters posted until Monday. Take this time to catch up on your reading, post follow up questions about these three chapters or the first 5 books, and ponder this...

Just for Fun Live or die?* Fred and George; Hagrid; Mad-Eye Moody

*Live or die has been lovingly ripped off from PotterCast

And with this post I am finally a Broadway Legend
Updated On: 2/25/06 at 07:29 PM

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 2/25/06 at 7:30pm

Congratulation to Yoda on becoming a legend!

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 2/26/06 at 2:24pm

Mad Eye Moody- I think he is too rugged to die now. He will need to be keeping vigilant for any future Dark Wizards that might come along.

Fred and George- They will both live to keep the Weasley family intact and continue to bring their great spark to the Wizarding World.

Hagrid- I used to think it was certain that Hagrid would die. Now I am just not convinced, I think his role as a liason to the Giants will be pivotal, but I am going to take the pessimistic view that in that duty he will die. (I don't think I actually agree with this, but I am throwing it out as a possibility.

[Overthemoon6]

Posted: 2/26/06 at 2:38pm

Mad Eye Moody- I think that he will be an even more important asset to the Order of the Phoenix, and that even if he does die, he will be a help to the destruction of Voldemort's regime.

Fred and George- I don't think that they will die; in the hard times, Fred and George seem like they will be the ones to keep smiles on people's faces.

Hagrid- Like SP, I thought, each time J.K. said someone important would die, that it would be Hagrid. I don't think he will die now, but I could be very wrong.

[pndmnd]

Posted: 2/26/06 at 2:43pm

Of those four, the only one that I think would possibly die is Hagrid, and I, like SP and OTM6, am not convinced of this. I used to get this horrible pang in my stomach every time something happened that I thought would lead to Hagrid dying, because I was so sure that he would. After so long of thinking that way, I guess I've kind of decided to assume that he won't die.

[Overthemoon6]

Posted: 2/26/06 at 2:44pm

Just wondering, but did J.K. ever mention anybody dieing in HBP?

[pndmnd]

Posted: 2/26/06 at 3:13pm

Edit:

I don't remember for sure if she did or not, I just remember knowing before the book was released that someone would die. Maybe it was just that, by then, I had figured out the trend.

Also, I just came up with a theory regarding the whole secret keeper thing, but it can't be mentioned on here until one of the last chapters of the discussion. PM me if you want.

Updated On: 2/27/06 at 03:13 PM

[sweetestsiren]

Posted: 2/26/06 at 3:15pm

Harry is obviously not convinced that Dumbledore will come to get him. Why do you think he doubts him? How does this illustrate the way Harry has changed over the course of the series?

Harry's disbelief that Dumbledore would keep his word in this chapter made me sad, but is completely understandable. Ultimately, I think that he had faith that he probably would come and was waiting for him, but couldn't bear the disappointment of packing and being let down. Harry went through so much disillusionment over the course of Order of the Phoenix, and he's learned that even Dumbledore isn't perfect. At this point their relationship is still very strained because of Dumbledore's coldness towards Harry for most of OotP and the revelation of the prophecy. And it isn't even just that he thinks that Dumbledore won't come... it's that he thinks that even if Dumbledore wants to come and tries, the odds are that something will prevent him from making it. He has learned that even things done with the best of intentions don't always work out the way that they should. He's not a child anymore.

On a somewhat related note, I heard a really interesting theory once that a lot of Harry's anger in Order of the Phoenix, in addition to being the result of hormones, adolescence, etc., was due in part to the connection between Harry and Voldemort that was open then. Does anyone have opinions on this?

Do you think Dumbledore and Petunia have had ongoing communication? About what?

No, not really. Dumbledore's Howler said, "Remember my last," which I guess could imply sparse communication over the years, but I took it to mean the letter that he left when he left Harry on Petunia's doorstep. I think that the Dursleys would've been more likely to treat Harry better if they'd known that Dumbledore had his eye on them.

And anjilly, that is a VERY interesting theory that could have some great implications for Book 7. Maybe that's one of the ways that Wormtail's life debt to Harry will play in.

[yodamarie78]

Posted: 2/26/06 at 11:36pm

How does Harry’s attitude in this chapter compare to the first chapter in OotP?

I always get a little annoyed with Harry during OotP, like most people do, but I love that JKR was willing to make him so unlikeable, because I think that is very true to the character. Before OotP came out I was interested to see if she would take him in that direction. If he were a real person all of that trauma from GoF would have really screwed with his head and I think his anger was very genuine. That said I was very happy to see that he had mellowed quite a bit for HBP.

Harry is obviously not convinced that Dumbledore will come to get him. Why do you think he doubts him? How does this illustrate the way Harry has changed over the course of the series?

I think that Siren and Penguin hit the nail on the head on this one. Read their answers!

Anji, I think that your Secret Keeper theory is facinating and could very well play a big part in book 7.

Live or Die

Fred and George- I don't think that they will die, but I do think that their tremendous abilities will be important.

Mad Eye- I'm about 50-50 on this one. He may very well die during a battle, but if he does I don't think it will be a very pivatol moment.

Hagrid- Like everyone else I though Hagrid was going to die in book 5. Now I think he will live and continue as gamekeeper at Hogwarts.

Chapter 4 will be posted tomorrow morning. Stay tuned!

[Overthemoon6]

Posted: 2/27/06 at 1:22am

Yay! I can't wait.

[yodamarie78]

Posted: 2/27/06 at 8:38am

Chapter 4 Horace Slughorn

Dumbledore and Harry go to see Horace Slughorn, a former Hogwarts
teacher, to recruit him to fill a vacant position. Slughorn tells Harry that he knew his mother, who was one of his favorite students and about the things that some of his other former students send to him and do for him. After Harry points out that the safest place to be at the time is probably Hogwarts Slughorn agrees to return. Harry and Dumbledore continue to the Burrow. Before they go inside Dumbledore tells Harry that he wishes him to take private lessons with him this year and cautions him to stay safe while he is staying with the Weasleys.

*Discussion Question*

So far in the book we’ve met two new, important characters Rufus
Scrimgeour and Horace Slughorn. What do you think may be the meaning behind their names?

Has Harry coped any better with being the sole savior of wizardkind than he did as the Boy Who Lived?

Harry does not particularly like Slughorn. What do you think of him?

How has Dumbledore's demeanor changed from prior books?

Thanks to Anjilly for her help with the questions.
Updated On: 2/27/06 at 08:38 AM

[Atrias]

Posted: 2/27/06 at 2:47pm

Has Harry coped any better with being the sole savior of wizardkind than he did as the Boy Who Lived?

I think that he has. As the Boy Who Lived, his fame was for something that was beyond control. He was only a year old when Voldemort failed to kill him, and therefore couldn't even remember the events that led to his fame. That said,I do think that Harry has handled his fame remarkably well ever since it was thrust upon it. Many other eleven year old boys might have jumped at the chance to use such a reputation to boost his popularity.Since, up until the point of his discovery of the wizarding world, he'd been a very neglected child, it's even more admirable that he didn't seek to gain the friends that he'd never had with his fame.

That said, I think that Harry is much more accepting of his role as the Chosen One then he ever was as the Boy Who Lived. I think a part of this has to do with the fact that, as a teenager, he can affect the outcome of events, and ultimately create his own legend without having it thrust upon him.

Harry does not particularly like Slughorn. What do you think of him?

I'm more amused by the character than anything. He seems to be the sort of teacher that, if you had him in real life, you'd really like or absolutely despise. However, I think he's the lesser of two evils, the greater, of course, being Snape. At least superficially, he's a rather pleasant person, and certainly more approachable and even persuadable than Snape is. In general, I think that he's a rather foolish man, but I admire the fact that he's chosen to keep on the run from Voldemort for a year, instead of joining him for the securities and possible comforts the alliance could bring.