Hillary Clinton on LGBT Teens- Page 3

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 1/30/08 at 2:10pm

Lildogs, that's a good question. I don't really know what I think about it, either. I think there's a case to be made that the T intersects with the LG and B, but I don't know that's necessarily the case, except that we're all looking for "tolerance."

I just want to know when the L jumped in front of the G. I remember when I used to see GLBT everywhere and then suddenly the L was in front.

[lildogs]

Posted: 1/30/08 at 2:16pm

I guess a lesbian printed up the programs and wanted top billing.

While I feel that (of course) legal protection should be granted to them just like any other minority, I don't feel like they are part of the same community.

Trans folk aren't gay and it isn't a matter of sexual prefernce, but of identity--and most trans people live as heterosexuals, though many engage in gay relationships too.

I think trans people see themselves as sexual renegades, and in that sense, grouping us together has a certain logic.

But in a clinical way, there's not really much of a connection.

And I have known two people both a MTF and a FTM and I know what a tough road that is, and I certainly sympathize, but I don't think it's the same.

[touchmeinthemorning]

Posted: 1/30/08 at 2:20pm

This discussion is had amongst feminist scholars often.

Should men be included parties when it comes to feminism? Is feminism for all of us? If it is for everyone, isn't it a misnomer?

On the issue of GLBT's "T", I've gotta say that we're asking people to stop viewing sex in "sex"ual terms, and start becoming more inclusive. And since that's what we're all saying, GLBT isn't a problem. however, I do think special attention should be paid to the specifics of what it means to be T (as well as the specifics of what it means to be B, and L, and G).

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 1/30/08 at 2:24pm

Don't forget the Qs. Isn't it LGBTQ?

[PalJoey]

Posted: 1/30/08 at 2:26pm

And "I"--for intersexed.

[robbiej]

Posted: 1/30/08 at 2:31pm

I always try to give the 'T' some extra thought. I certainly understand the differences between our transgendered friends and the process of coming out as gay, lesbian or bisexual. But, at the same time, I still view it all as sexual identity politics. And I say, the more the merrier.

[lildogs]

Posted: 1/30/08 at 2:31pm

The T is more about gender than sex, isn't it? Sex is what you do, gender is what you are.

And I get the inclusion argument, touchme, but it seems to me that it's more about the acceptance we LGB folk wish for ourselves and would extend to others. To me, it's inclusion for inclusion's sake.

Do we take in ALL sexual renegades?

[robbiej]

Posted: 1/30/08 at 2:34pm

I broaden the term sex (in my very own definition that I force on no one) to mean an act and the mean gender. Cause, in the end, the problem people have with homosexuality is the gender you're screwing.

[SonofMammaMiaSam]

Posted: 1/30/08 at 2:34pm

I have a fondness for the ff's, ws's, bd's, et al

[lildogs]

Posted: 1/30/08 at 2:37pm

Oh heavens...I'll leave that info on my manhunt profile...

[PalJoey]

Posted: 1/30/08 at 2:38pm

I don't like defining it as an act or "sexual orientation." I prefer to define it as "affectional orientation"--or in whose arms you want to wake up AFTER the act.

[Cue for Phyllis Rogers Stone regarding Buddy's arms.]

[robbiej]

Posted: 1/30/08 at 2:43pm

Totally respect that.

But I must say that I'm not a big fan of removing the 'sex' from 'homosex'. Our battle plays out on the larger battle against sexual freedom in this country. I could say, 'See...my partner and I are happy and are making a stable(ish) life and we're just like you. That's why I deserve equal treatment under the law.'

I'd rather say, 'I pay my freaking taxes just like you and I don't commit any crimes in my expression of my sexuality and THAT'S why I deserve equal treatment under the law.'

[lildogs]

Posted: 1/30/08 at 3:01pm

I prefer "Mind your own business"

And I don't think our problem is lies in being able to express our sexual freedom--it lies in the perceptions that the untutored have of us and the good publicity we get. The more kids grow up with gay people on TV and the internet, the more "normal" it will seem to them.

Alot of our difficulties lie in the definition of "normal" and so long as the boundaries of acceptability are being expanded, we make progress.

[touchmeinthemorning]

Posted: 1/30/08 at 4:00pm

I think that's just it: those who should be included in the cause are those who have to deal with social stigma regarding their desires: sex or gender.

That of course makes it difficult to decide who doesn't get included. It isn't appropriate ot include, for instance, child molestation in our cause. The line is blurry, but present all the same.

[lildogs]

Posted: 1/30/08 at 4:02pm

That's what I mean, touchme...there's also a debate in the medical community as to whether or not remove transgender issues from the list of mental illnesses...

[robbiej]

Posted: 1/30/08 at 4:07pm

I don't know...I think a very strong argument can be made that because children's bodies have not reached any kind of sexual maturation, consent regarding sex cannot be given.

Things DO get blurry when we get to the teenage years. The situations become far less black and white (although, currently, the law is pretty black and white).

[touchmeinthemorning]

Posted: 1/30/08 at 4:08pm

Yeah, the ICD and the DSM are usually pretty late to get on the bus. GID is a crock.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 1/30/08 at 5:27pm

the T is def not the same thing as the LGB. the LGB part is about not being discriminated for your sexual orientation. The T part is about not being discriminated for your sexual identity (gender). But every T (to simplify) is either LGB or straight. and the Ts who are LGB have to come out in a compounded way. however, the straight Ts face being rejected for being a freak by potential heterosexual partners. and none of this includes the journey to a fuller realization of what's going on when a T doesn't know what the hell is going on.

But I agree that it all boils down to our country's (our planet's) issues with gender. and in the eyes of most homophobes, T and LGB are all the same--we're all freaks or fags or perverts or abominations. that's why we should stand together. ultimately we fight the same fight and usually the same enemies.

[lildogs]

Posted: 1/30/08 at 5:31pm

I had a trans friend (FTM) who dated another guy, though he tends to date women.

Personally, I wouldn't date a trans guy but that's just me. I mean, I certainly accept him as a man, just not one for me--am i alone?

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 1/30/08 at 6:38pm

I don't think your stance is awful. there are certainly specific issues surrounding anyone we might date or sleep with. and the fact is that as of right now, it is not possible to fully transition a tran guy. (stem cell research may prove to help that)

and knowing what a big ol fantastic bttm you are, lil, it would obviously be an issue unless you were ok with the obvious substitute.

i'm primarily a top (cues the gallery of snickering ) so it wouldn't bother me.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 1/30/08 at 7:43pm

This thread has descended into TMI.

If you want to discuss tops and bottoms, go to manhunt or PajamaWorld.com.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 1/30/08 at 8:01pm

of ALL people, that's rich.

I wasn't discussing sex in a manhunt way. I was discussing it as part of the practicalities of a mature discussion on a fair topic.

that it's a threadjack is a fair criticism.

but of ALL people, you want to be offended and high and mighty?

Wow.

ETA: PJ says he was only teasing. thus, I apologize for taking it the wrong way.

Updated On: 1/30/08 at 08:01 PM

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 1/30/08 at 10:28pm

I think people should be required to sign off each post with a Tone Meter ^TM similar to Live Journal and the like.


Mood: Jokey
Updated On: 1/30/08 at 10:28 PM

[PalJoey]

Posted: 1/30/08 at 10:33pm

I dunno. I though "PajamaWorld.com" made it pretty clear it was a joke.


Mood: Beguiled again.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 1/30/08 at 10:35pm

I thought Pajama World was some kind of dirty site I'd never heard of.

I have a pair of married friends, one of whom is an MTF.

I used to talk to a guy on Bear411 who was an FTM.

Mood: Pretty