Hobby Lobby decides they're a religion instead of a business, so they don't have to answer to the government, just God. — Page 3

One day common ground will be found.

NEVER.

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And yet, IUDs, Plan B, and Ella aren't abortifacients.

But I get that they consider a fertilized egg to be a person, even an egg that hasn't been implanted. Jesus.

Updated On: 6/30/14 at 04:01 PM

YWIW - you well know the definition of a "closely held corporation." You know it doesn't have to be a family.

Correct. It is coincidental. But I'm just saying the argument that it's an "extension of their family" is irrelevant.

Good point, DD.

I was responding to the specific query of this case because it made clear that Hobby Lobby was advocating beliefs of the family that owned it. If the situation was slightly different, and a group of unrelated individuals formed a closely held corporation and then used it to advocate their personal religious then, the same argument would prevail. Sorry I tried to tailor the argument the specific facts presented. My argument is that you cannot use the benefits of a corporation to shield you from personal liability, and then use that same corporation to advance your personal religious beliefs and claim that you and the corporation are separate legal entities.

And yes, I know what a Closely Held Corporation is. I have drawn up paperwork forming them. I also know what the alter-ego doctrine is - which is what I was asserting could be expanded to apply in this instance: you can look through a corporation in certain instances to hold its principals personally responsible for its actions. Usually it looks to financial advantage or gain, but I think there is an argument that it would apply here.

And for the record, I hope Liza goes bald, and throws all of her accessories away.

Updated On: 6/30/14 at 05:09 PM

Hobby Lobby's retirement plan also invests in contraception manufacturers.

Hypocrites.

I do not believe the RFRA should apply to Hobby Lobby, as it is NOT A PERSON. The RFRA applies to a person's religious beliefs. By allowing corporations to use the RFRA to advocate and advance personal religious beliefs of its shareholders on to its employees it turns the RFRA on its head - allowing the employees religious beliefs to be subordinate to that of the employers. So now, instead of the employee being free from a specific religious belief, it allows the corporation to impose religion on the workforce. The employer has now used the RFRA to prevent the free exercise of religion, and personal decisions based upon religion, but its employees.

But, for the record, my position regarding alter ego has nothing to do with the RFRA, but the basic structure of corporations. Individual shareholders and owners are shielded from personal liability when the set up the corporate structure, unless it can be demonstrated that the corporation is not an entity independent of its owners/shareholders. Hobby Lobby, by advocating that it holds the religious beliefs of the Green family has done just that. If they want control to advance personal religious agendas they should lose the protection that comes with a corporate structure.

Eden Foods' health care provider is required by the HHS to comply with all details of the Affordable Care Act. Parts of the mandate violate the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, and the Administrative Procedure Act. This overreach of the federal government infringes on religious freedoms.

It is discriminatory that not all employers have to comply with the HHS mandate. Millions of people and thousands of companies are exempt. The exemptions under the Act are illogical, inconsistent, and contributing factors to our lawsuit. For instance, McDonald's Inc. and 166 unions are exempt. Small employers are exempt. Individuals who practice certain faiths are exempt, while individuals who practice other faiths are not. Federal employees are exempt, and this is hypocritical. There is no exemption for the religious freedoms of employers.

Mr. Potter puts it well. But no surprise that you'd like to force private entities to subsidize ALL of the 20 birth control options. 16 is not enough, damnit!

All in all, this was a victory for and confirmation of religious liberty. It wasn't about women's access to birth control, as Hobby Lobby has made clear they were only opposed to the abortifacients. They were fighting for the right to opt out of providing a service they found morally objectionable.

Ginsberg's dissent suggested that this could turn into companies refusing to provide blood transfusions, etc. While I think that was unfair because this is about abortion, a much more contentious (and morally significant) problem than blood transfusions, a company should have the right to refuse to cover anything on religious grounds.

How are they being persecuted, though? They still have the right to practice their own religion...they have the right to purchase any kind of medicine they would like....they still have the right to access 16 fully, or partially, subsidized birth control options.

They were fighting for the right to opt out of providing a service they found morally objectionable.

Except they never really found it morally objectionable to begin with. Hobby Lobby routinely invests in mutual funds that have stock holdings in companies that manufacture the same so-called "abortifacients" they were determined to keep from their female employees: Plan B and Ella and IUDs.

* Teva Pharmaceutical Industries:Plan B and ParaGard
* Actavis: generic version of Plan B and distribution of Ella
* Pfizer: Cytotec and Prostin E2, used to induce abortions
* Bayer: IUDs Skyla and Mirena
* AstraZeneca: Prostodin, Cerviprime, and Partocin, drugs commonly used in abortions
* Forest Laboratories: Cervidil, used to induce abortions

In other words, they can make money making drugs that abort babies--sure, making money is the CHRISTIAN thing to do!--but they won't let their womenfolk near those drugs THEY MAKE MONEY INVESTING IN.

It was a crass and cynical move on the part of Hobby Lobby that would make Jesus throw up in their Hobby Lobby.

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