Imagine No Religion- Page 2

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 12/10/07 at 7:30pm

Those are certainly the unfortunate and hateful principles that some religious groups are so proud to expound.

(Although the war thing is not historically accurate, the vast majority of wars were started for resources and then later attributed to religious difference, in an example of artscallion's point, in order to make them seem "necessary" and "right".)

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 12/10/07 at 7:36pm

I belive in faith.

I just have a problem with religion.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 12/10/07 at 7:39pm

are we just talking monotheistic religions centered around the god of abraham or do the hindus and the buddhists and the taoists and the shintoists and the rastafaris and the scientologists and the jains get theirs taken away too?

[PB ENT.]

Posted: 12/10/07 at 7:42pm

Namo, my furry lovin' friend, then where does one place their faith? ...

[JustAGuy]

Posted: 12/10/07 at 7:44pm

"Some people use religion to do good loving things for other people as well. The vagueness and reliance on something greater than humans leads them to act in favor of the whole.

Are you saying those people wouldn't do those things without religion? Getting rid of the "crutch" of religion wouldn't make those people less good would it? If you can justify the good that religion brings into the world, it seems only fair that the bad be justified as well.

[trinaaron]

Posted: 12/10/07 at 7:50pm

"But you have to admit that more oppression hate and war is committed in the name of god, than any other single reason.

And you have to admit that more charity is given in the name of God than any other single reason.

"Imagine no religion. Don't you think fearful, intolerant people might then be forced to act differently without the crutch of being able to so easily support their oppressive actions through something so easily malleable and ready to conform to their purpose as religion. They might actually have to think about what's right!"

And yet, so much of what we think of as right and wrong is the result of religion, even if we don't want to believe it. The vast majority of the western world's legal systems are based on Judeo-Christian beliefs. Are these beliefs right 100% of the time? Of course not, nothing in this world is perfect. Is there a better alternative? Maybe, but no one has come up with one yet. A main idea behind communism is the elimination of religion and look at how well that turned out.

[TheHumanTorch]

Posted: 12/10/07 at 7:50pm

"Imagine no religion. Don't you think fearful, intolerant people might then be forced to act differently without the crutch of being able to so easily support their oppressive actions through something so easily malleable and ready to conform to their purpose as religion. They might actually have to think about what's right!"

Where exactly would the definition of right come from? If you are talking about the modern tenets of right and wrong (such as don't kill other people, don't steal) all of these came from a religion of some form or another. Say people were all of a sudden to stop believing in heaven and hell and only live life for the present (as one poster suggested) where would that leave the world? If there were no other-wordly system of justice why would the general populous feel compelled to follow any sort of law?

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 12/10/07 at 7:56pm

The current war IS about religion. Not completely, but religion has a huge part in it. I think that can be said for most wars.

And when people say "organized religion" I get confused. Isn't all religion organized? I thought that was sort of where people drew the line when they say they are spiritual as opposed to religion. Religion is specific where spiritual is more abstract, right?

I think it's groovy that the atheists did this, but I kind of wish that maybe they'd have chosen a different theme during this time of year. They've given O'Reilly and Co some actual fodder for their fight in the War on Christmas.

[HDThoreau2]

Posted: 12/10/07 at 7:58pm

America is a Christian nation.

Check the constitution.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 12/10/07 at 7:59pm

Why don't you quote a bit of it for us?

[JustAGuy]

Posted: 12/10/07 at 8:00pm

"America is a Christian nation.

Check the constitution."


Dumbest comment ever. And that's saying something.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 12/10/07 at 8:05pm

Trying to keep it to the thread's subject, because I never tire of what people have to say about it...

So yeah, we know the laws are based on Judeo-Christian flimflam and this and that and you can't have this without that. To those of you who keep saying that, are all of you believers? Does it say something that the non-believers seem to think "yeah, it would be great" and the believers seem to think, "Oooh, it will always be terrible"? Yeesh.
Updated On: 12/10/07 at 08:05 PM

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 12/10/07 at 8:06pm

phyl, how's it about religion? it's about one nation's refusal to abide by the terms under which it surrendered after having invaded another country and having its ass kicked back into its borders. where's the religion in that?

Updated On: 12/10/07 at 08:06 PM

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 12/10/07 at 8:08pm

It was tied to the events of September 11th by our president.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 12/10/07 at 8:17pm

where does it say anything about 9/11 in the aumf? and i thought that we went into iraq for wmds. now it's because it was saddam was behind 9/11? it is a religious war? is it a crusade? do our soldiers march behind a cross?

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 12/10/07 at 8:23pm

Yes. And no.

But, as this thread as shown, religion really has permeated pretty much every aspect of society as we know it. I just wish people didn't have to be so crazy about it.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 12/10/07 at 8:25pm

that insidious religion, sneaking its way in when no one was looking. now there's no way to get rid of it without killing off the entire human race and hoping that the earth will start from scratch after it cools off again.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 12/10/07 at 8:33pm

I can understand that as a believer you would think that no matter what the circumstance religion would always be. You can imagine I might think differently.

Have you ever read Oryx and Crake? This discussion keeps making me think about it.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 12/10/07 at 8:35pm

nope. atwood bores me to tears.

you can think however you want. you'll be wrong, but you can think however you want. i'll support your right to be wrong.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 12/10/07 at 8:42pm

Only that and Handmaid's Tale had any effect on me. The rest of her stuff bores me to tears as well.

I don't mind if you think I'm wrong. In the god game, every one is pretty sure they know what they're talking about. Except the agnostics, of course.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 12/10/07 at 9:06pm

i know all there is to know about the go-od game.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 12/10/07 at 9:11pm

I know quite a bit myself.

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 12/10/07 at 9:37pm

re: Imagine No Religion
Posted On: 12/10/07 at 07:50:04 PM

"But you have to admit that more oppression hate and war is committed in the name of god, than any other single reason.

And you have to admit that more charity is given in the name of God than any other single reason.








The first thing that popped into my head after reading that was, "More people died because of war than charity"

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 12/10/07 at 9:39pm

"As the good lord said, 'Charity begins at home.' " - "Mama" Rose Hovick.

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 12/10/07 at 9:59pm

Are you saying those people wouldn't do those things without religion? Getting rid of the "crutch" of religion wouldn't make those people less good would it? If you can justify the good that religion brings into the world, it seems only fair that the bad be justified as well."- Just a Guy

No, that wasn't what I was saying at all. It is actually a fundamental misunderstanding of my point.

My point is: there are hateful people, they use religion to spread their hate, it does not make it inherently hateful. Religion can also be used for good but it does not make it inherently good.

I never argued that there is not bad that comes from religion, but it remains that none of these things is going to be a be all answer.

The original argument was- Intolerant and hateful people use religion to justify their hatred, if you take away the religion they wouldn't be hateful, it is that conclusion that I disagree with. Not that religions have been responsible for many atrocities.

Also, I want to state clearly, the key for me is that there is no single answer to these things: for some it is certain that the original statement is true, without religion they would be tolerant, rational people.

Updated On: 12/10/07 at 09:59 PM