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Is Civility a Fantasy?

Is Civility a Fantasy?

SteveSanders
#1Is Civility a Fantasy?
Posted: 9/24/25 at 7:07am

While I pose it as a question, Roxanne Gray confidently says it is indeed one in this provocative New York Times opinion column (gift link).

Sharing it here given some of what has surfaced in different threads discussing charged topics.

I find it particularly interesting to consider her thinking in the context of President Trump saying "I hate my opponent" at Charlie Kirk's recent memorial service.

Excerpt:

"Civility is the mode of engagement that is often demanded in political discourse; it is the price of admission to important political conversation, its adherents would have us believe; no civility, no service. But civility — this idea that there is a perfect, polite way to communicate about sociopolitical differences — is a fantasy.

"The people who call for civility harbor the belief that we can contend with challenging ideas, and we can be open to changing our minds and we can be well mannered even in the face of significant differences. For such an atmosphere to exist, we would have to forget everything that makes us who we are. We would have to believe, despite so much evidence to the contrary, that the world is a fair and just place. And we would have to have nothing at stake."

And another:

"Calling for civility is about exerting power. It is a way of reminding the powerless that they exist at the will of those in power and should act accordingly. It is a demand for control.

"Civility is wielded as a cudgel to further clarify the differences between “us” and “them.” It is the demand of people with thin skin who don’t want their delicate egos and impoverished ideas challenged. And it is a tool of fearful leaders, clinging to power with desperate, sweaty hands, thrilled at the ways they are forcing people, corporations and even other nations to bend to their will but terrified at what will happen when it all slips away."

Updated On: 9/24/25 at 07:07 AM

John Adams Profile Photo
John Adams
#2Is Civility a Fantasy?
Posted: 9/24/25 at 8:36am

SteveSanders said: "While I pose it as a question, Roxanne Gray confidently says it is indeed one in this provocative New York Times opinion column (gift link)."

WOW... a lot to unpack but (for me), fantasies aren't real. They don't exist in the present tense. Because I believe that, I think the question is darkly pessimistic. Ms Gray is basically saying that "civility" doesn't exist.

Admittedly, I can't access the article, so I'm only reacting to your excerpts/synopses, but a factor that's missing in the discussion is the element of choice, or free will. 

If a person has a clear understanding of what civility is, and the expectations for how it should be exercised within their given community, the last element of the algorithm is to make the choice to enact it within the definition and boundaries first described.

Ms Gray presents her argument as if "civility" were an autonomous noun. Yes, the word itself is grammatically a "noun", but its presence in the world is as a verb; an action. It's an action that exists because we CHOOSE to exercise it. 

In a free society, Humans ALWAYS have a choice regarding their actions. In a free society, everything we do is done by our own CHOICE to do it (or not). In some situations, we excuse ourselves by saying, "I didn't have a choice", but that is never scientifically true. In reality, we use that phrase when the choice is incredibly difficult, and we want a release from guilt for having to make the choice.

Ms Gray wrote: "The people who call for civility harbor the belief that we can contend with challenging ideas, and we can be open to changing our minds and we can be well mannered even in the face of significant differences. For such an atmosphere to exist, we would have to forget everything that makes us who we are. We would have to believe, despite so much evidence to the contrary, that the world is a fair and just place. And we would have to have nothing at stake."

No. I don't believe that at all. In fact I believe the opposite. I'd edit, "we would have to forget everything that makes us who we are"  to read, "we would have to accept an understanding that we are a humanity with naturally occurring flaws and faults, and that the choices we make shape how, as individuals, we are viewed within our society."

I'd also edit, "We would have to believe, despite so much evidence to the contrary, that the world is a fair and just place." to "We would have to accept and understand that the world is not always a fair and just place, and that how we react to that fact is completely controlled by the choices we make about it."

Ms Gray wrote: "Calling for civility is about exerting power."

Nope. Calling for civility is about exercising "choice".

Ms Gray wrote: "Civility is wielded as a cudgel to further clarify the differences between 'us' and 'them'."

An unfortunate choice made by some.

Updated On: 9/24/25 at 08:36 AM

SteveSanders
#3Is Civility a Fantasy?
Posted: 9/24/25 at 9:55am

Hmm.  I just double-checked and my link is for an unlocked gift article, but this one should access the full article as well: https://archive.li/no9pw

John Adams Profile Photo
John Adams
#4Is Civility a Fantasy?
Posted: 9/24/25 at 11:35am

Okay, now that I've read it, my views are changed, but not by much. Her thesis statement seems to be: "But civility — this idea that there is a perfect, polite way to communicate about sociopolitical differences — is a fantasy." I still hold to my counterpoint that Ms Gay (just for clarity's sake, and as a sign of respect, I think the additional "r" was accidental) isn't factoring in the element of choice, or free will.

Also, when discussing civility from a sociopolitical pov, the word, "polite" doesn't need to be a considering factor. I say that based on the options for defining, "what is 'civility'?" in the context of Ms Gay's assay.  (Although IRL, outside of politics, I think "politeness" shouold come first.)

Here's what I found online to be the most relevant possibilities in this context:

    1    Courteous behavior; politeness.
    2    A courteous act or utterance.
    3    The state of society in which the relations and duties of a citizen are recognized and obeyed; a state of civilization.

I also found this @ The Institute For Civility (formerly known as, Institute for Civility in Government) website: "Civility is claiming and caring for one's identity, needs, and beliefs without degrading someone else's in the process."

That 4th definition is the one I favor most when discussing civility as applied to Ms Gay's essay.

RE: definition, agree? disagree?

Jay Lerner-Z Profile Photo
Jay Lerner-Z
#5Is Civility a Fantasy?
Posted: 10/1/25 at 9:44pm

This board certainly suggests that civility IS a fantasy.


Beyoncé is not an ally. Actions speak louder than words, Mrs. Carter. #Dubai #$$$

John Adams Profile Photo
John Adams
#6Is Civility a Fantasy?
Posted: 10/2/25 at 9:43am

Jay Lerner-Z said: "This board certainly suggests that civility IS a fantasy."

I disagree. "This board" is only one, singular sample. Your sample size is too small.

Fantasies are not reality. By definition, they are a product of the imagination. To state, "Civility is a Fantasy" is akin to saying, "Civility does not exist, except in the imagination".

All I would need do to disprove that theory is find ONE example that demonstrates the existence of Civility in the real world. I would offer Jon Stewart's Final Speech at Rally to Restore Sanity. (Begin at the 8:34 time stamp). 

His description regarding the "You go, then I'll go" model is not only a real world example that Civility does exist, it also illustrates my theory that Civility's existence relies on whether/not people make the choice to exercise it.

SteveSanders
#7Is Civility a Fantasy?
Posted: 10/2/25 at 12:33pm

I do think it is useful to distinguish between everyday civility or what some may call politeness, and political civility as Roxanne Gay is focused on more.

The latter starts to bring in the related issues of political protests, advocacy, persuasion, and many more.

I can't remember if she talks about it on one of her books or columns or if I heard Gay mention this when I went to one of her pubic appearances, but she raised a question I've heard others pose:

  • Just how civil do people think I should be when I talk with those who wish to deny my existence or some of the rights they fully enjoy?

 

Updated On: 10/2/25 at 12:33 PM

Jay Lerner-Z Profile Photo
Jay Lerner-Z
#8Is Civility a Fantasy?
Posted: 10/2/25 at 1:12pm

Does this extend to tolerance of religion?

Forgive me if I'm giving off Seb vibes... but how much "respect" do we owe even the most mild-mannered of the devout?


Beyoncé is not an ally. Actions speak louder than words, Mrs. Carter. #Dubai #$$$

Jay Lerner-Z Profile Photo
Jay Lerner-Z
#9Is Civility a Fantasy?
Posted: 10/2/25 at 1:16pm

Who was right... Malcolm X... or MLK? 

Is that what it comes down to?


Beyoncé is not an ally. Actions speak louder than words, Mrs. Carter. #Dubai #$$$

John Adams Profile Photo
John Adams
#10Is Civility a Fantasy?
Posted: 10/2/25 at 2:06pm

SteveSanders said: "[...]I can't remember is she talks about it on one of her books or columns or if I heard Gay mention this when I went to one of her pubic appearances, but she raised a question I've heard others pose:

  • Just how civil do people think I should be when I talk with those who wish to deny my existence or some of the rights they fully enjoy?"

I would LOVE to ask her what she believes is the definition of "civility". Currently, it seems like she may be leaning toward definition 1, above (due to her inclusion of the phrase, "a perfect, polite way to communicate").

If she does believes it's definition 1, (courteous behavior; politeness), then IMO, on a scale of 0-10, "0". If it's someone's intention to deny your existence or your rights, (IMO) no courteous behavior or politeness need be required.

If she believes it's definition 4, (claiming and caring for one's identity, needs, and beliefs without degrading someone else's in the process), then on the same scale of 0-10, "11".

...and I go off-the-chart because I feel like it might require an above-and-beyond, Herculean effort to enact the "without degrading someone else's in the process" aspect.

John Adams Profile Photo
John Adams
#11Is Civility a Fantasy?
Posted: 10/2/25 at 2:11pm

Jay Lerner-Z said: "Who was right... Malcolm X... or MLK?

Is that what it comes down to?
"

IMO, no.

Civility is not about being "right" or "wrong". Civility is about how one engages in response to a circumstance/situation.

In other words, if someone climed to be "right", but you disagreed, civility would be demonstrated in HOW you respond - not WHAT your response is.

Updated On: 10/2/25 at 02:11 PM

Jay Lerner-Z Profile Photo
Jay Lerner-Z
#12Is Civility a Fantasy?
Posted: 10/2/25 at 3:47pm

John Adams said: "Jay Lerner-Z said: "Who was right... Malcolm X... or MLK?

Is that what it comes down to?
"

IMO, no.

Civility is not about being "right" or "wrong". Civility is about how one engages in response to a circumstance/situation.

In other words, if someone climed to be "right", but you disagreed, civility would be demonstrated in HOW you respond - not WHAT your response is.
"

 

That's what I mean. They both had the same aim,but disagreed on which was the best method to achieve it. One opted for "civil", the other chose other means.


Beyoncé is not an ally. Actions speak louder than words, Mrs. Carter. #Dubai #$$$

John Adams Profile Photo
John Adams
#13Is Civility a Fantasy?
Posted: 10/2/25 at 5:34pm

Jay Lerner-Z said: "That's what I mean. They both had the same aim,but disagreed on which was the best method to achieve it. One opted for "civil", the other chose other means."

I'm more familiar with MLK's works and speeches than I am with Malcomn X's, but to be clear, I am NOT an expert on either. Because that's true, I can't accurately respond regarding whether/not either spoke, or acted "without degrading someone else"

If either spoke negatively about any race, that does not necessarily mean they spoke in an un-civil manner. Offensiveness is not necessarily a synonym for incivility.

 

 


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