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#26

re: Jews and Homos...

I think the whole idea of Jews marrying Jews and building families is that the very essence of Judaism begins with the family. We have practices and rituals that are specifically done in the home that are considered holy. This would involve keeping kosher, Sabbath observance , peace at home, etc. At the heart of this is the family and you can't have a family unless two Jews of the opposite sex have children. G-d told Abraham and Sarah to procreate and build a great nation so that G-d's commandments could be practiced. Judaism doesnt, in my eyes condemn homosexuality. It is just pro family. We had to Lesbian Rabbis in my community. One was Reform and the other Conservation. The Reform one was open about it, had a partner and adopted two children. Unfortunately,the conservative movement is not as open and she moved to NY. My hope is that Judaism recognizes all families not matter how they were created.
"Friends are the people you chose as family."....Me.
#28

re: Jews and Homos...

Question - What do you get when you lock a gay man and a Jewish man in a room together for a week?



Answer - A BROADWAY MUSICAL!!!
"If my life weren't funny, it would just be true. And that would be unacceptable." --Carrie Fisher
#29

re: Jews and Homos...

My synagogue is reformed and very liberal - my rabbi performs same-sex unions. However, an acquaintance of mine is a Conservative Jews, and they teach against homosexuality. I'm guessing it depends...Sorry, I cna't really help beyond that.
Rosencrantz: "Be happy - if you're not even HAPPY what's so good about surviving? We'll be all right. I suppose we just go on." - from Tom Stoppard's Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead
#30

re: Jews and Homos...

One voice I wish were contributing to this thread is our own beloved Corine2. Because she's Jewish and god knows she loves the homos.
Twitter @NamoInExile Instagram none
#31

re: Jews and Homos...

Perhaps, Namo, but Marriage is an alien concept to the Core.
PEACE.
#32

re: Jews and Homos...

Yes.

When I told my parents I didn't plan on getting married and having children, they went through both, the wall and the ceiling. They feel that it's my public duty to reproduce Jewish children to keep the culture/religion alive.

When I told my Dad I didn't believe in just one organized religion, he cried.

When I came out as a lesbian, they cut me off financially and said I was lashing out at them.
#33

re: Jews and Homos...

we talked about this issue a lot in class this past year and read many articles by all different people including rabbis, homosexual jews, etc.

as people, just like in every religion, beliefs will vary from individual to individual and from temple to temple so you can't generalize as people have said. many orthodox families probably would excommunicate a family member if they found out the family member was gay, just like they would excommunicate a family member that married a non-jew.
in conservative judaism, JTS (the jewish theological seminary in nyc, which ordains most conservative rabbis in the US) has a "don't ask don't tell" policy, where they won't admit someone if they know the person's gay while applying, but once the person is in the school and comes out, i'm pretty sure they won't be kicked out for it. it's a really big issue on the campus at the moment and within conservative judaism and at the recent graduation/ordination, there was a group giving out pins that had a rainbow background and said "ordination regaurdless of orientation." the CJLS (the committee on jewish law and standards) which determines the conservative movement's modern law in the US says that gay people cannot be rabbis or leaders within the community but that they should be welcomed as part of the community and should not be discriminated against. (just a little hypocritical, i know) also, conservative rabbis belong to the RA (rabbinical assembly) and there are three ways to be kicked out of it, one of which being marrying a same-sex couple. you can't be kicked out of the RA for being gay though. basically, conservative is open to it but not completely accepting yet, only because anal sex (and only anal sex, not being gay or anything else) is prohibited in the torah and most people are not yet ready to either abbrogate the law in the torah or to accept people as leaders that violate the law. i don't really know much about reform.

sorry if that was more than you wanted to know but i hope it helps a little. that's the official policy as far as i know and if you want more information or articles i have a bunch i can send to you.

(you should know that i don't necessarily agree with all of this. it's just the official stance at the moment, but it will probably change within the coming years. for my class, i actually wrote a paper saying that gay people should be allowed to be jewish leaders using jewish texts as proof.)
No Child: http://www.epictheatrectr.org/
I Love You Because OCR: http://www.psclassics.com/cd_iloveyou.html
#34

re: Jews and Homos...

Alix and Adoannie--I encourage you both to spend a little time at the link I posted on page 1 of this thread for Congregation Beth Simchat Torah, in particular the biography of our out lesbian religious leader, Rabbi Sharon Kleinbaum.
#35

re: Jews and Homos...

thanks, i'll read it.

we actually mentioned this congregation and the "struggle" that happened, last year i think, with Rabbi Cohen and the RA.
No Child: http://www.epictheatrectr.org/
I Love You Because OCR: http://www.psclassics.com/cd_iloveyou.html
#36

re: Jews and Homos...

Rabbi Ayelet Cohen is fierce! We're lucky to have both of these women leading our congregation, one gay, one straight.
#37

re: Jews and Homos...

Sueleen,
Rewinding back to the Jewish culture having a bigger problem with homsexuality than other religions...Actually, Muslims have the bigger problem. It is illegal in some African countries to be homosexual, and in these African countries it is predominant Muslim.
"Do you know what pledge time is, Andrew"? said the PBS Executive. "Yes", Lloyd Webber replied. "My 50th birthday special must be one program that gets done a lot." "No", mused the man from PBS heedlessy. "Not so much. Our Stephen Sondheim Carnegie Hall concert. That's a big one." Spoons, forks and knives seemed suddenly to suspend their motion in horror, all around the table.
#38

re: Jews and Homos...

Okay,

I figure I should probably throw some insights into this thread. I am a religeous Orthodox Jew. I wear a Kippah all the time, I keep the Sabbath and the laws of Kashrut. Also, being in the theatre I have a ridiculous amount of gay friends, so these discussions come up a lot and are quite interesting. I think there is pressure for Jews to start families, because the family unit is very important in Jewish law. The passing of traiditions and knowledge to your children is a key concept in Judaism, and religious Jews say a prayer about it three times a day. In fact the first commandement ever given in the bible, in Genesis, is "Be fruitful and mutiply". Hah...don't cofuse that with being fruity...

As far as the Jewish view on homosexuality, yes...gay sex is a sin. Then again so is masturbation according to the sages because of wasting of sperm without the intention of producing a child. Any premarital sex, or even married sex with a condom is also forbidden by the sages.

I highly suggest anyone interested should rent the film "Trembling before G-d". It is quite a moving documentary about gays and lesbians in the Ultra Orthodox Jewish community. BUT....If you are renting this film on DVD (and I know they have it at most Blockbusters) PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE go to the extra features after you watch the film itself and watch the section that is titled something like "More from the Rabbi's"...The reason I urge this is because the film ends with a feeling of ambiguity and that none of the Rabbis seem to have the answers...well the truth is some of them do, and they didn't include it in the film itself.

Hope that helped...and let me say that although I am an orthodox Jews, that doesn't mean that all the things i said above are personal beleifs of mine, more of the Orthodox movement in general. Every individual is their own case though.

Akiva
#39

re: Jews and Homos...

re: Jews and Homos...

sueleen takes her obsession with jews a bit too far but wins an oscar in the process. oy vey.


XING
PED
#40

re: Jews and Homos...

My first date in NYC was with an openly gay rabbi.

I think Jewish men are very sexy--esp middie! re: Jews and Homos...

I think people in both the Jewish and Christians faith have the option of accepting or not accepting the modern translations of the Torah and Bible. There has been extensive research into the very strong possibility that these books have not been translated accurately--that homosexuality was never brought up in the original texts. And if it even was, it's issue was about wasting sperm (as Akiva mentioned), not that two men or two women in love is inherently wrong. And, if that is the case, any sperm not intended to multiply is a sin.

And, Akiva, Trembling is on my netflix list! It's almost at the top of the list. :)
johnraymondbarker.com
#41

re: Jews and Homos...

Oil of Oi Vey
Cheers Cheers, Thanks a lot.
#42

re: Jews and Homos...

jrb_actor,

Sorry...I have to argue with one of your points. As much as the English and Latin bibles have been changed over the years, the original hebrew has never been changed. There are VERY old torah scrolls still in exsitence, in museums and such, and not one word of Hebrew has been changed...in fact if one letter is even slightly scewed...the whole torah scroll is deemed unusable for use. Plus my father is a proffessor of religious studies, and a historian, and he has personally comr into contact with anciet documents (the dead sea scrolls and such) and I am pretty sure he would agree that the homosexual thing (Leviticus 18:12) was originally in the bible.

Akiva
#43

re: Jews and Homos...

This thread answered alot of my questions. . .
#44

re: Jews and Homos...

Akiva--that is very cool to know. But, there are idioms that are on the line--much of the old testament (which we share) speaks of pederasty--which is VERY different than homosexuality, but just interpreting the Hebrew word in the wrong way can take you down the wrong path--and this is one such. Also, there are very different societal issues. And again translations can murk up those waters.

All I am saying is--is it NOT definite that the Hebrew texts speak of homosexuality (which is a 20th century word to begin with)--and certainly not in the sense that we know it--marriage and family, etc.

And my main point is that it is very easy to be of a Jewish or Christian faith who does not see homosexuality as a sin. Very easy.
johnraymondbarker.com
#45

re: Jews and Homos...

I am fluent in Hebrew (I was born in Israel) and my father can speak both ancient Hebrew (different than modern) and Arameic. There isn't much misinterpreting that line, hah. HOWEVER..the one word in that line that I am not sure about is "abomination"...I am sure that one is debatable...i don't know if that is the best translation into English for that word, and that is a word I am not familiar with.

Akiva

Updated On: 7/7/05 at 10:56 PM

#46

re: Jews and Homos...

Really? you speak fluently in the Hebrew dialect of 2000+ years ago? That's stunning! You must be paid a lot of money for that work.

So, do tell us what the Old Testament really says about homosexuality.

I know--I'm being glib--but c'mon, am I supposed to let that last post trump me? No. re: Jews and Homos... And, I'm not making my argument up--I have dug deep into this issue myself. I form my opinions primarily on two great books--STRANGER AT THE GATE and WHAT THE BIBLE REALLY SAYS ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY. I offer them as a valid argument where words fails me. :)
johnraymondbarker.com
#47

re: Jews and Homos...

Well, your editing of your post makes my make less sense, but I will add to your new post by asking if you are 100% certain of the verb in that sentence that the original Hebrew uses. Today, Bibles say "lies". And that in itself is confusing.
johnraymondbarker.com
#48

re: Jews and Homos...

Akiva, I have to ask if you yourself feel pressure to marry and have a family? And also, if the pressure is a life-long thing, does it even feel like pressure? Would you say it's ingrained in you?

On another note, I once came back from a certain schvitz and was talking to colleagues about this Hasidic Jewish man who was coming onto me in the steam room. A Jewish colleague I worked with at the time said, "That's impossible!" I replied that no it was not. She told me that both masturbation AND homosexuality were completely forbidden. Then she asked me how I KNEW he was Hasidic? I pointed out that the tell-tale side curls and bushy beard MAY have been just a fashion statement, but if you ask me, this man was an Hasidic Jew and he was masturbating in the steam and coming onto me. Plus, there was the little matter of him putting on the outfit when it came time for him to leave the place.

Anyway, he was kind of annoying because he was very frantic about his self-abuse, I mean he was floggin the log like it was going out of style.

And my point in telling this story is, there is often a world of difference in how people present themselves and their beliefs to the world, and what they do under the cover of steam. And I'm using steam in both the literal sense and as a metaphor (for those of you who aren't lit majors).
Twitter @NamoInExile Instagram none
#49

re: Jews and Homos...

it's usually steamy under my covers.
#50

re: Jews and Homos...

Tell your friend there are MANY closeted Hasidic Jews.

And they give the BEST blowjobs!

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