Jews and Homos... — Page 3

THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE, she would say.

I'd like to hear from more Jewish people their opinions on this topic. Not MORE Jewish than PJ, but, rather, more as in others.

---

Alix...That is is really intersting about toevah, I'm going to look into it myself. Maybe PM me if you can think of where I could find other uses of taht word in the torah. I think it would make a really interesting research.

Namo, I do feel pressured from my family to start a family, but I am not so sure that is due to their Judaism. My oldest brother got married at 21 to his high school sweetheart, and they have two amazing sons now. I think the only reason i occasioanlly feel pressured is because my brother married so young (which honestly had nothing to do with religion, they were just really ready). My parents are dying for more grandkids, and quite frankly, I am looking forward to having kids. For various reasons I was very active in raisingmy nephew, up until he was two, and I can't wait to have my own kids, and be a great father.

What there IS pressure for in my family is to marry Jewish. It is fairly unspoken rule that my parents expect us to. I dont think they would disown me or anything, but would be very dissapointed. Truth is I really have no plans on marrying a non-Jew (converts by no means count as a non-Jew), if only because it wouldn't work. I keep Kosher, an the sabbath, and I highly doubt I could make it worht with someone who didn't.

And jrb...I hope it doesn't seem like I am attacking homosexuals. I am merely debating what the bible says about it...not that people have to follow it. I am not one to push religion onto other people, and in fact highly dislike those that do. I see what you are saying about the tranlation of the word "lie", however...that same word "Tishchov" is found in many ancient texts where the context is clearly sex. And even if that word is mistransalted...can you think of what else it might mean.

I hope my tone doesn't sound like a bastard...i am just quite interested in this debate.

Oh and yes...there are definitely closeted Orthodox, and ultra-orthodox jews, as there are in any religious community. I have seen a male prostitute coming out of a hissidic man's car, in a VERY jewish neighbourhood where I live. Like I said..Trembling before G-d is the movie to see about this topic.

Akiva

p.s. wow...that was the longest and most personal post I have posted here. hah...I am so drained.

Actually, Muslims have the bigger problem. It is illegal in some African countries to be homosexual, and in these African countries it is predominant Muslim.

Justice, I still think this is a matter of the cultural influences and interpretation of the text. Yes, many muslim countries do condemn homosexuality, but the verses in the Qur'an doesn't contain terms that are equivalent to homosexuality, but rather something that can be translated as 'sexual perversion' or the like. So similar questions apply to homosexuality in Islam as they do in regards to homosexuality in christianity and judaism.

The liberal movements within Islam do question many of these interpretations and have encouraged the Qur'an verses to be analyzed in the context of modern society. But whether the dominant religion of the country is Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, or Hinduism, there is generally little encouragement to question "traditional values" in many African and Asian countries, compared to how it is in the West.

Sorry if I'm threadjacking. Just wanted to put that in. Back to Judaism, now.

We used to have a rabbi at my synogogue who was openly gay. He and his partner adopted an adorable little baby girl. Sadly they moved away. He was my favorite rabbi. It depends on the congregation and whether you are reform, orthodox, conservative or what have you. It would probably also depend on where you live because the culture of the area you live in will influence you just as the culture of your religion will.

---

For some reason I mistook this thread to be about Jews and the Homeless...

The religious jews don't "believe" there's such thing as gay.
I'm not that religious, but sure, my parents (who don't know i'm gay),
expect me to bring them some grandsons.

The religious jews and rabbies claim that if a man is with another man, he's end is in hell.

The jewish religion is very harsh for homosexuality...

Boy, I can't believe I wasn't here for this thread. Allow me to jump in and say thanks to Akiva and jrb for fascinating posts. I am entering the Seminary in September, and I see I have LOTS to learn. Especially verbs. Toevah? New one for me!

As a female Jew, I have been raised conservatively, but with a great education if I do say so myself. The issue of homosexuality was never raised, though I was taught by 2 out Rabbis.

The question initially raised was if I was under pressure to have kids. I joke about it all the time with friends, and yeah, I know that when I get older, I'd like to fall in love and get married and have kids, but I'm 20 years old. I have time. I also know that my mother wouldn't give me pressure to marry and have children, because she hates her marriage tremendously -- she's loves my brother and I tremendously, of course, but to see what an emotionally abusive marriage does to a person...well, I hope not to have to go through that. So no pressure.

On to homosexuality...

When my best friend Jon came out of the closet, I told my mother who said "Great, DON'T come home with the same news." She thinks its odd and perhaps unhealthy for me to associate with so many gay men, as it could impair my chances of hanging out with straight ones (well, she'd like me to at least have a boyfriend. I think she worries I'm a lesbian, what with my copies of the Advocate and such) She's just against everything, because she is conservative in nature, and hasn't been exposed to anything outside of academics. My father, I swear, he's going to come out of the closet at age 80.

The bible says what the bible says. I look forward to studying it more in classes in the fall. But hell, who follows all the laws in the bible anyway? As my brother says, "I'd follow ALL the laws in the Torah if I could, but polygamy isn't legal in New York." As for hell, I don't believe in it, and I don't believe Judaism does either, at least not in the "burn in hell" sense.

---

Great stories, Shira. I particularly loved "My father, I swear, he's going to come out of the closet at age 80." Sounds like a possible entire thread of its own!

LLWannabe... if you DID get the Link Larkin gig, what would you do about the Sabbath?

---

"LLWannabe... if you DID get the Link Larkin gig, what would you do about the Sabbath?"

I was about to ask a similar question. I know you are an actor and was curious what you do about it. I want to keep the Sabbath more when I get older but I also want to be a working actor doing 8 shows a week.

I'm Jewish and have always felt that Judaism was much more accepting of gays than other religions. My USY advisor puts it well "it's complicated," he says that about everything because, well, Jews are not given a lot of clear answers. I have a ways to go but I plan on marrying a Jew and if I don't my children will definatley be raised Jewish. My faith even though I am not nearly as religous as I should be, is a big part of who I am and it would be very difficult to be with someone who was not Jewish, I would actually like to marry someone who is more religous than I am.

I am also the epitamy of Jewish guilt my mom calls my name and I respond: "What did I do?"

---

I also wanted to add that the "jewish" thing also is far more important (read: bigger issue) as it relates to having children. It can be argued (and probably will) that it's less important if two adults can respect others beliefs and live in harmony. The "problem" usually arises when a child is brought into the picture because it then becomes an issue on how that child should be raised.

---

Wow, this certainly is one interesting thread and it raises more questions than it answers.
Where do I begin?

Akiva, do you feel it is more important to honor the Jewish laws than to be honest with yourself? You claim you strongly desire to have children, but don’t really say you desire to be married. If you told your parents you were gay how would they respond?
The feeling that I am getting from you and some others here is that the Law is the Law and my happiness be damned. Of course being true to your religious beliefs requires a bit of sacrifice, but if you feel you were born gay, don’t you think God would want you to be happy? It is not like staying kosher…you still get to eat great food!

Shira, your family situation makes me very sad. Both your parents are in a terrible marriage from the way you put it. Your Mother is miserable because she married a gay man, and your Father is miserable because he felt his only option was to marry and have children. Oh, and by the way, if you are carrying around the Advocate…they know you are a Lesbian, they are just telling you to stifle it and marry a nice Jewish boy and have kids so you can be miserable just like them. What kind of parent would wish that on a child?

Here is the bottom line, as I see it. All organized Religions offer some really great things to some people. But it really is pathetic how people use it like a smorgasbord. I’ll have a little of the kosher and just a dollop of Gay. That fact has been illustrated here in this thread regarding the different varieties of Judaism. Catholics are the same way. Although the Vatican is very anti-gay, anti-birth control and abortion, many Catholics just seem to pick and choose what they want believe, the basic creed of the church but with a few exceptions thrown in to suit their individual needs.

Thank you all for your great posts.

---

While my parents marriage does make me rather sad, I have to say I post with a hint of jest. My father isn't gay, but I poke fun at how much he enjoys West Hollywood. My mother just doesn't like my dad for reasons I won't go into. Their issues have nothing to do with sexuality. My father married twice before my Mom, and she should have figured out that a man who has been twice divorced has some issues. But she didn't, and here I am.

As for saying I'm a lesbian, honestly, if I was, I would have come out already, as I know I would have the full support of my Dad and my grandmother (my Mom's mom, oddly enough). Rather, because I have so many friends in the gay and lesbian community, I feel it is important to at least have a small grasp on the issues within it. I hope it's okay to care about a community and be involved with it, even if you are not yourself part of it.

Giraffe -- I do like my name, I think it really represents who I am.

---

Hah,

Dammit...sleep hinders me from interesting conversations. Okay..

First off about acting and keeping Sabbath. I have mentioned in other threads that once I am done this Annie Get Your Gun tour, I am retiring from acting. The sabbath is a big reason for that. In practical terms...there are really no jobs in the theatre for me unless I am willing to work friday noghts or saturdays, which I am not. The company I currently work for gives me an understudy for those performances I can't make, and are VERY supportive of me...but I can't imagine that being common. It was a very hard time I had in high school debating whether I wanted to pursue acting or keep the sabbath. In the end my beleifs won over some of my goals, but luckily I fell into Set Design, which I was just as passionate about, and much easier to work around for Sabbath. Will I miss acting...of course. Will I regret it...sometimes. But do I still think it is worth it? yeah.

The thing for me is I have been into excessive behaviors during my teenage years, and done horrible things to myself and others. As much as those laws and prohibitions seem outdated and unecessary to much of the modern world, for me personally I know it makes me a better person, because it gives me limits and boundaries. And even if I choose to cross one of those boundaries...I am much more aware of it, and that keeps me from going that much futher into dangerous excess. (hah...i am not so sure this paragraph made sense at all to anyone but me).

And Sueleen, I so want to have kids, and want to get married just as much...but I just don't see it happening for me anytime soon. This is more due to the lack of Jewish girls for me. I am kind of an outcast in the Modern Orthodox world, because I grew up in a community where there weren't other Jews my age, so all my friends were non-Jews. I went to public high school. Me and my brother both went through quite rebellios punk phases (I had an addiction issue...in grade 9)...And even know, that I live in a big Jewish community...It has been very diffiuclt to find people that I can relate to in my neighbourhood. Almost all my friends are the ones I make at school, yet again non-Jews, nothing new in my life. So I find it hard to beleive that I will find an Orthodox girl, who understands taht you can be Orthodox in a modern secular world. So many Jewish friends of mine didn't even really have any friendships with non-Jews until university, because they had been segregated their whole lives (then again I have black friends that can say the same thing about their community).

As far as if I told my parents that I was gay (Hah...which I should say i am not, not to sound like a certain Avenue Q song), I don't think they would be angry or anything, just slightly dissapointed, as I have said earlier in this thread. Grandkids are their life right now, and to not supply that for them would be the biggest thing of all. But my dad does have a gay brother, who we try to invite over as much as possible, but he does live far away.

And as far as being both gay and a follower in the Bible, I don't have an easy answer. BUT...that is not to say i dont think someone can find the answer in themselves. I am not gay so I really don't know how it feels. But there are some very interesting stuff that the Rabbis say about it in the extras on the DVD for Trembling Before G-D...stuff about how there are exceptions to these laws if it is just impossible for someone to follow. Hah...i can't explain it as well as they can so just rent it.

Hah...i don't even know if I answered all the questions directed my waym and I apologize if I didn't...no dodging was meant. I need breakfast though...

Akiva