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Prop 8 & DOMA Decisions Will Be Handed Down Today — Page 2

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#26

Prop 8 & DOMA Decisions Will Be Handed Down Tomorrow

Well...it could, if the Court determines in a crazy, sweeping, overwhelming decision that no state can restrict marriage to between a man and a woman. But that is not going to happen.
#27

Prop 8 & DOMA Decisions Will Be Handed Down Tomorrow

Phyllis that focus is on DOMA. Rendering DOMA unconstitutional (which may not happen) would shut down that law. That is a federal law that prevents you from taking your NY marriage to Florida. If the law doesn't exist, you can sue in Florida for your marriage to be observed. Also your NY marriage would be federally recognized everywhere.
#28

Prop 8 & DOMA Decisions Will Be Handed Down Tomorrow

So quick question - if DOMA is struck down, could a gay couple who live in NYC (one a US citizen and one an illegal immigrant) get married to give the other citizenship?
#29

Prop 8 & DOMA Decisions Will Be Handed Down Tomorrow

^Yes, I believe so.
I am a firm believer in serendipity- all the random pieces coming together in one wonderful moment, when suddenly you see what their purpose was all along.
#30

Prop 8 & DOMA Decisions Will Be Handed Down Tomorrow

"So quick question - if DOMA is struck down, could a gay couple who live in NYC (one a US citizen and one an illegal immigrant) get married to give the other citizenship?"

Well you can actually do this today and probably get the same result. The problem with marrying an undocumented person is that they may have violated the law. If so, straight or gay they will not be allowed to stay.

Now, if DOMA caused someone to be denied sponsorship (perhaps allowing them to slip out of status) that would ironed out by an immigration officer.


And ALWAYS make this clear to people that oppose DOMA. We are not asking for any new rights. Binational gay couples will be put through the same rigors as their heterosexual brothers.
#31

Prop 8 & DOMA Decisions Will Be Handed Down Tomorrow

I've always had major issues with DOMA (obviously), but recent events in my American History class this year just made me outraged beyond belief against it. When we were preparing for the Constitution Test (a test mandated by the state, I believe, in order to graduate high school), we learned about the Full Faith and Credit Clause, which is in the fourth article. This clause states that a state must respect another state's laws. The example my teacher explained was that if you get a divorce in Nevada and then move to California, if California normally requires a longer waiting period, they must still recognize the divorce because it was granted in another state. In other words, DOMA is in direct conflict with this clause of the constitution. I was absolutely shocked to hear this because all the constitutional arguments I had heard against DOMA cited the 14th Amendment's equal protection under the law. I cannot fathom how this was ever passed when it is a direct violation of the constitution. Perhaps I'm just repeating things all of you already know, but as I said, I was absolutely shocked when I learned this.
#33

Prop 8 & DOMA Decisions Will Be Handed Down Tomorrow

Kennedy looks at this as a state's right issue.

And if this is a "states' rights issue,"

DOMA should be thrown out in an instant. What could be a broader federal "overreach" than telling states that laws they've passed through referenda or the legislative process regarding who people can marry are ignored by the federal government in favor of what it deems to be acceptable?

That said, there's a tremendous amount of misinformation out there on all sides (including in this very thread.) That isn't to say anyone is uneducated or ignorant but it's very complicated and technical. As someone very interested in politics and law, and this issue in particular, I'd like to clear a few things up though I'm far from a Constitutional scholar and anyone can feel free to correct anything that I write that is inaccurate or confusing. I'm also going to try to keep the wording relatively neutral so as best to convey the facts and not my (very strong!) opinions.

First things first: Edie Windsor, a New York resident, is an elderly woman who is suing the federal government because she claims DOMA denied her "equal protection under the law" guaranteed by the 14th Amendment. She lived with her partner Thea Spyer for 40 years before being legally married in Toronto in 2007. Spyer died in 2009 in New York, a state that recognized her marriage even before gay marriage became legal in New York because the state recognized legal marriages in other jurisdictions. Thus, under New York law, the women were married. Under federal law, legally married couples are entitled to an unlimited spousal deduction for federal inheritance taxes, meaning that they don't have to pay any taxes when their spouse dies. However, DOMA prevents the federal government from recognizing marriages between gay people, so Windsor had to pay $363,000 in taxes when her loved one died on any money over $3.5 million instead of the sum of $0 she would have paid if her partner was a man. (this fact is not in dispute.)

The Department of Justice and the Obama administration have determined for themselves that the law is unconstitutional, so the Bipartisan Legal Advocacy Group of the House of Representatives (BLAG) is defending the law on the government's behalf headed mainly by House Republicans. It gets very complicated in that the Department of Justice is listed as a defendant even though they agree with the plaintiff to ensure that the parties have appropriate standing since there is some debate on whether or not the BLAG would have standing to defend the law alone. Regardless, both the DOJ and BLAG are named defendants so a ruling dismissing the case on standing would be incredibly surprising (both sides agree on this)

DOMA first allows states to elect not to recognize gay marriages that legally took place in other states. (ie. if you're legally married in New York, Nevada can and does consider the marriage void if you move there.) The second component of DOMA prevents the federal government from recognizing any marriages between gay or lesbian couples for all federal laws or programs even if their state recognizes their marriage. (this is the so-called section 3 that's been all over the news) Only this second component - Section 3 - of the law is being challenged in the Windsor case because Edie Windsor was unaffected by the first provision and the way our legal system works, she would not have standing to challenge the other component since it wasn't an issue of another state not recognizing her marriage.

While it may seem that even if the Supreme Court sides with Windsor, the part allowing states to ignore legal marriages in other states would stand, that is not true as the Supreme Court through judicial review is allowed to consider the merits of the law in totality; Windsor's lawyers simply couldn't use it to frame their case.

Currently, section 3 of DOMA denies gay couples the following federal benefits of marriage (and I'm sure there are others):
1.) Social Security spousal benefits/spousal disability insurance and Social Security One Time Death benefits
2.) The ability to file federal taxes as a married couple, filing jointly, which allows for federal tax deductions
3.) 0% gift taxes on gifts between spouses: if a gay individual transfers, say, the title of their car to their spouse, the spouse is supposed to pay taxes on it (straight couples pay 0% tax)
4.) Numerous military benefits including emergency notification if one's spouse is injured or killed in combat, a one time $100,00 payment paid to surviving spouses of a soldier killed in combat, a military pension of 55% for spouses of soldiers serving 20 years or more, access to the military's healthcare system through their spouse in the military, benefits of the GI bill to fund education for spouses of soldiers killed or injured in combat, death benefits for veterans.
5.) Citizenship benefits including naturalization for a spouse who is lawful permanent resident but not a U.S. citizen, and immediate spousal visas that allow straight couples to obtain a visa for their spouse without restriction.
6.) Health insurance benefits for spouses of federal employees
7.) Hospital visitation rights for spouses

So, what happens if section 3 of DOMA is ruled unconstitutional? All those federal benefits would be granted to gay and lesbian couples who have a marriage legally recognized by the state they reside in. If the other component of DOMA is also found unconstitutional by the court (unlikely by most accounts because it isn't specifically an issue in the case before the court) states would be compelled to recognize marriages legally performed in other states, allowing just about anyone to go to New York or another state where gay marriage is legal and return to their home state and still receive all the benefits described above. It wouldn't be the same as a declaration that marriage is between any two consenting adults (first because gay couples would still need to travel some place to get married and because states would still be free to deny benefits states grant to married couples like adoption rights, state taxes, etc.)

Hopefully that all made sense! Let me know if I need to change anything or if anything is still unclear/you have other questions. Sorry for the novel but I'm sure as any of you who have dug into this know, it's quite a complicated matter.

The Proposition 8 is another matter entirely (and honestly even more complicated) and I can type something up in a little while if anyone is interested.

ETA: A friend just asked so I figured I'd state it explicitly here, there is almost no conceivable way that the Supreme Court would require gay marriage be legal everywhere in the United States through Windsor v. United States since even striking down DOMA in its entirety (as I explained above) wouldn't do that. The nationwide legalization of gay marriage could only be mandated by the court through Hollingsworth v. Perry - the so-called Proposition 8 case, also being decided tomorrow.

Scratch and claw for every day you're worth! Make them drag you screaming from life, keep dreaming You'll live forever here on earth.

Updated On: 6/25/13 at 08:17 PM

#34

Prop 8 & DOMA Decisions Will Be Handed Down Tomorrow

I cannot fathom how this was ever passed when it is a direct violation of the constitution.

No state had gay marriage when DOMA was passed. The point of DOMA was to prevent the 4th Amendment from being used.
#36

Prop 8 & DOMA Decisions Will Be Handed Down Tomorrow

Glad you appreciate it, Jordan! I'll do it in a bit!
Scratch and claw for every day you're worth! Make them drag you screaming from life, keep dreaming You'll live forever here on earth.
#37

Prop 8 & DOMA Decisions Will Be Handed Down Tomorrow

this does not require lengthy dissertations.

DOMA is in violation of the very first amendment: CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW REGARDING THE ESTABLISHMENT OF RELIGION.

one man-one woman is specifically a judeo-christian concept, and this particular manifestation where "love" is involved is a very recent one. why should it take precedence over, say, polyandry (where one woman can wed multiple men), polygamy, or polyamory? and if it must be one man-one woman, why should it not be the hindu/eastern way, where the marriage is arranged?
#38

Prop 8 & DOMA Decisions Will Be Handed Down Tomorrow

Thank you, too, broadwaydevil! I've been desperately trying to understand what parts of my rights were at stake, and it's all been very confusing. Thank you again for demystifying the matter for me! And I would also like to see you post on Prop 8.
#39

Prop 8 & DOMA Decisions Will Be Handed Down Tomorrow

Bethnor, while I agree with your sentiment, for better or worse, that isn't how the Court works. Even if we had nine liberal justices, they can't make a ruling and expect to have any precedent or legitimacy without all these legal definitions and considerations.

Reading what I wrote isn't necessary for anyone strictly interested in waiting tomorrow to hear the results of what happened and how the law will change, but I would hope a good number of us are interested in the reasoning behind everything and will come away with whatever happens tomorrow with a deeper understanding of what was decided instead of just regurgitating whatever is ripped from headlines.

Just got back to my computer and typing the Prop 8 case now for those interested!
Scratch and claw for every day you're worth! Make them drag you screaming from life, keep dreaming You'll live forever here on earth.
#40

Prop 8 & DOMA Decisions Will Be Handed Down Tomorrow

And here's Hollingsworth v. Perry - the Proposition 8 case. I will again try to word everything neutrally but please correct anything that may be wrong.

First: some history on Prop. 8 for those who don't know. California law before March 2008 limited marriage to one man and one woman but in March 2008, the California Supreme Court ruled that the law violated California's constitution. In response, opponents of gay marriage used a ballot referendum to amend the California Constitution, so called Proposition 8, as a ballot question which passed with a narrow majority of voters and gay marriage became illegal again in California effective immediately. The amendment was challenged in the California Supreme Court which ruled that Proposition 8 itself was constitutional and gay marriage could remain banned but that gay marriages that were validated in the brief 9 months after the original California Supreme Court ruling but before Proposition 8 was enacted were still legal. This is the current status quo in California, leaving a complicated scenario where some gay people are legally married and recognized but other gay people can now not get married.

While this original case was still being decided by the California Supreme Court, another case was filed suit in California: Kristin Perry and her spouse were denied a marriage license in California under Prop 8 and they filed suit. The then-Attorney General now Governor of California, Jerry Brown decided it was unconstitutional and elected not to defend it, as did then-Governor Schwarzenegger, a pretty clear parallel to the DOJ's actions in the Windsor case. Since all cases need a defendant, the group Protectmarriage.com led by Hollingsworth (giving the case its name) stepped up as a defendant of Proposition 8 and was granted standing by the court.

A federal district court then declared that Proposition 8 was unconstitutional because it violated the Due Process and Equal Protection clauses of the 14th Amendment. Interestingly, the case focused on the psychological, economic, and sociological effects of gay marriage and compared it to the fearmongering of the pro-Prop 8 groups to explain that gays and lesbians are a minority deserving the protection of strict scrutiny afforded to other minorities like African-Americans. Still, gay marriage was not legalized in Caalifornia pending appeal and the status quo remained. This was upheld by a federal appeals court and has now reached the U.S. Supreme Court.

The reason this is more complicated, in my view and in the view of most, than Windsor, is that there are many more options for the Court here and far less certainty over what they'll do. I list them below, again, there may be more that the justices have agreed on as some sort of compromise that would be difficult to predict. I'll try to start with the simplest and work my way down into the finer, grayer points.

1.) The most "pro gay marriage" decision would be the so-called fifty-state ruling, which would mean the Court would find that it is unconstitutional under the 14th Amendment for any state to prevent gay couples from being recognized as fully-married and equal to their straight counterparts. This would, effective immediately (perhaps allowing for some time to redo any books or current systems), allow gay citizens of all 50 states to get married wherever they live and all state statutes or constitutions in conflict with the ruling would be declared null and void.

2.) On the opposite end of the spectrum, the Court could claim that Proposition 8 is constitutional and not in conflict with the 14th Amendment; there is no constitutional protection for gays and lesbians to be married. It would be upheld and the status quo would remain in California pending future amendments or referenda. States that currently prohibit gay marriage would be permitted to do so and states that opt to legalize it would be able to do so as well.

3.) The so-called eight state solution covers the eight states where gay couples are afforded essentially all of the same rights as straight couples besides the title of marriage. If the Court opted for this ruling, it would be found that it is discrimination to call the union of two couples of different sexual orientations different things while conferring and affording to them all the same recognition and benefit. This would affect states with civil unions that act almost essentially identically to marriage in all but name: Delaware, Hawaii, Illinois, Nevada, New Jersey, Oregon, and Rhode Island. This is being looked at by many as a "potential compromise" but proponents of gay marriage say it may prevent other states from opting for civil unions for gay couples in the future if they'll have to call it marriage while opponents of gay marriage think it would be an example of federal overreach and judicial activism, so it's quite possible the so-called compromise would satisfy just about no one.

Interestingly, Oregon and a few other of the "eight states" have filed friends of the court briefs in favor of the plaintiff, meaning they are supporting what would be a change to their own laws.

4.) The so-called California only approach could hold that gay marriage must be legal only in California because it was at one time legal and there is no legitimate reason to "take away" what was already a granted right. This would effect no other state since no other state has permitted gay marriage and actually signed gay marriage licenses only to withdraw that right in the future.

5.) The infamous-standing ruling that's been getting lots of coverage lately because it's being perceived as a somewhat likely outcome. As mentioned above, the state of California isn't defending their own law in any capacity, much different from the Windsor case that is being defended by House Republicans (acting in their capacity as the government) and the DOJ to avoid this potential conundrum. Thus, there's a pretty legitimate question as to whether or not this political advocacy group has standing to defend California's law in the Supreme Court. In fact, California filed a friend of the court brief claiming protectmarriage.com did NOT have standing to defend the law. If the court dismisses the case on standing, one would have to look back to the original DISTRICT court ruling which was in favor of gay marriage but would apply only to California since it was done in a California district court. (this was the case decided by the judge who later came out if anyone remembers this)
In theory, the Court could reject the standing claim and also say the District court lacked the authority as only a district court to make a ruling on all same-sex couples and that only the party suing (Perry) should be allowed to marry because it isn't a class action lawsuit, but that also would be improbable and perhaps even unprecedented in cases involving civil rights.

Again, please let me know what's confusing or anything I've missed. Sorry this took so long - kept getting interrupted!

Scratch and claw for every day you're worth! Make them drag you screaming from life, keep dreaming You'll live forever here on earth.
#42

Prop 8 & DOMA Decisions Will Be Handed Down Tomorrow

Thanks, Gaveston, fortunately it didn't take too much time as I only had to double check and fill in a few things from other sources. '

Key point if you're looking for just what the headline will mean: in both cases "Held" will be a victory for gay rights since the appeals court in Windsor found Section 3 of DOMA to be unconstitutional and the appeals court in Perry found Prop 8 unconstitutional in California. Knowing how the court works though, it won't just be a hold on both cases - the Perry case as outlined above will likely be more complex and nuanced.
Scratch and claw for every day you're worth! Make them drag you screaming from life, keep dreaming You'll live forever here on earth.
#45

Prop 8 & DOMA Decisions Will Be Handed Down Tomorrow

Adding my thanks to broadwaydevil for that very thorough overview and analysis.

Thank you for taking the time to add some valuable information to this important discussion. It's very appreciated.
"Two drifters off to see the world. There's such a lot of world to see. . ."

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