Protesting the RNC!- Page 6

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/29/04 at 2:01pm

It may be a part--but it is a rather important part. It would be nice if the rest of the world could have respect for the President. Nice if Americans could respect the President.

I just find it odd that you have higher expectations of your fellow board members than you do of the President.

[nystateomind04]

Posted: 8/29/04 at 2:01pm

I've always thought Bush just appeared too dumb to be true. It would make sense that it is all a very clever political cover-up, and should warrent him a well-deserved oscar too! Updated On: 8/29/04 at 02:01 PM

[LadyGuenevere]

Posted: 8/29/04 at 2:02pm

Yes, I do, but I tend to find that if people are bothered by any religion, it's Christianity. Put up the 10 Commandments, and you get total hell, but for other religious symbols- it's not the biggest deal any more.

Your post seems to hint that you do have a problem with Christianity. Ask yourself, would you have a problem if the majority of the population was Jewish? Muslim? Buddhist?

And as we allow people in the government who are atheist or just do not put religion in while making the decisions, do you think that it isn't fair to stop a members from different religious groups from having a position in the government?

Leaving out religion completely can drop a whole different viewpoint from the discussion. Yes, when put in practice in an extreme way, it isn't good, but the other extreme is not the answer either. Updated On: 8/29/04 at 02:02 PM

[spiderdj82]

Posted: 8/29/04 at 2:04pm

It is not really CHRISTIANITY, because I am christian and I am all for gay marriage, and I know other christians who believe the same I do. It is the majorly conservative Christians (southern baptists and others)that is against Gay Marriage because it will go against "family values........and the sanctity of marriage" which by the say has gone out the window decades ago. I mean, straight people who are christians get divorced all the time (which is against the Bible too)but a lot of Christians don't count that because it reflects them and they do not want to do that. All in all, it boils down to hypocrits. People pick and choose which part of the Bible they want to believe. But, please don't blame all christians because it is not everyone.

[Rathnait62]

Posted: 8/29/04 at 2:04pm

An extremely large number of Americans had no respect for Clinton, jrb, and he's a brilliant scholar. Most people are not going to hold a lot of "respect" for a president for whom they didn't vote. There will always be reasons.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/29/04 at 2:04pm

Yes, making decisions based without religion is the only fair way to include all Americans.

For example, without religion, there is no argument for why gays shouldn't be allowed to marry.

[spiderdj82]

Posted: 8/29/04 at 2:07pm

jrb, trust me.......they would find some way (tradition, etc)

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/29/04 at 2:08pm

Tradition isn't an argument for civil rights. It was once tradition to own African Americans. It was once tradition that your wife was your property.

[LadyGuenevere]

Posted: 8/29/04 at 2:10pm

So wait, I don't think that you're against religion, just against people who are religious.

Eliminating religion would highly benefit your beliefs, and you believe that it is so. Unfortunately, people will oppose your beliefs and have their reasons.

You can't eliminate a whole group from the government. Heck, it's like me saying "Let's just eliminate half of the Democrats because they don't think about upper class Americans, they always say that they're just about the middle class." It's stupid. It won't happen. It's not realistic. You can't eliminate religion completely without wiping out a large portion of America, the government, etc.

Of course it will suit YOU, but how about the people who use religion in their lives? Do they have the chance to vote for who they want to see up there?

I don't know if anyone will understand what I'm trying to say here...I don't know how to word it better. Updated On: 8/29/04 at 02:10 PM

[spiderdj82]

Posted: 8/29/04 at 2:12pm

sorry JRB, that is true.

[nystateomind04]

Posted: 8/29/04 at 2:12pm

My main problem with Christianity is that it is run by the Church, which just happens to have a history of corruption. I am not educated enough to make such statements about other religions, though I do venture to say that there is also a serious problem with Islamic fundamentalists (but we all know that). The fact is that the Church HAS to lie just to keep it's congregation (you can tell I've been reading my copy of "The Da Vinci Code" lately, huh?)) and because of this, it has no place in government. No, not just Christianity, any religion.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/29/04 at 2:14pm

You do need to word it better because, I don't get the impression that you get that religion has NO business in government.

If you can not argue an issue without referencing the Bible or other religious document, than you do not have an argument that is fair to all Americans.

The only fair ground is a non-religious argument.

Murder is a crime because is defies someone's civil rights--not because God said so.

[nystateomind04]

Posted: 8/29/04 at 2:15pm

"Eliminating religion would highly benefit your beliefs, and you believe that it is so. Unfortunately, people will oppose your beliefs and have their reasons."

Their reason is their own bigotry, supported by the Bible, which is just not a reliable source in ANYTHING, history tells us that.

[LadyGuenevere]

Posted: 8/29/04 at 2:15pm

I agree, you can't JUST use religion. Throw it in for a couple of reasons, and then support your claim scientifically- FINE.

But you lean to the other extreme, I'm more in the middle- I don't support using JUST religion as a reason, but I don't support eliminating it completely either.

[Rathnait62]

Posted: 8/29/04 at 2:15pm

jrb, for some reason I can't pm you back, so to answer your statement, if people wonder what side I'm on, they have only to look at my earlier post in this thread which stated that I am gay and am voting for Kerry. I don't have to rabidly defend only one position and constantly attack the other side in order to be clear. No "side" should be all or nothing, black or white. We are complex creatures living in a complex world.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/29/04 at 2:17pm

I never asked you to be a guest on Hardball, I just think you constantly shoot yourself in the foot, but have at it!

[bwaysinger]

Posted: 8/29/04 at 2:18pm

"So, you cant respect me because the leader of my party doesnt agree with me? *I* would treat you with respect...therefore, I should get your respect. You dont have to respect the party I affliate myself with. That is the BIG difference--me & the 1 of 2 parties I align with. "

***Millie, here's exactly why I think you're talking out of your ass. You would respect me at the same time you're going to the polls to support a man who wants to make sure I drink at a different water fountain than your future husband? You can say you disagree with this one issue but that maybe we agree on other things...but I'm not standing here saying I'm going to cast my vote for a man who wants to make sure we all have to live by the moral code dictated by people thousands of years ago in the very part of the world we're fighting now .

"You see, its a mutual thing. I cant respect a party that supports what I believe to be the murder of unborn children... but I can respect you as a human being. Issues dont make a person. They are but small facets on a complex person."

***Yes, this is true...but I could love everything about you but if you started making fun of Asian people or something, I would cut you off right there. My sister-in-law is Asian and it's very fun to hear people spout off pretty hateful stuff when they *assume* you're going to agree with them. So, you could be the nicest person on the planet in every aspect but one and not deserve on iota of kindness or respect from me.

"Isnt it GOOD that there are people in the other party that aren't for things like the amendment? If we work to change from the inside, YOU will benefit. Bet you never thought of it that way before."

***Why, Millie, oh my god! You're right! All of that working to change it from the inside is definitely taking its toll. After all, right-wing ultra-conservatives like Jerry Falwell or the folks at Focus on the Family have in no way grown in power in the Republican party recently and Bush hasn't pandered to his ultra-conservative base at all.
Pardon me while I laugh maniacally.

"Do you know all my political beliefs? Do you know my stance on taxes, jobs, death penalty, defense, education? You would be suprised what we agree on.
What you just said was that you have concluded you cant respect me because I am choosing 1 man out of 2, and its not the one you like."

***It's not even that you're choosing the one I don't like, it's that you're choosing the one who fought to have a lame bill introduced to vote in Congress so that he could shore up his fundamental support by showing fearful "straight" families across the country what evil Democrats voted in favor of allowing gay people equal rights.
I don't play well with scare tactics, Millie, and if there's one thing we've all figured out very quickly, it's that Bush's right hand is VERY good at ensuring that the people never see what his left is doing.

[spiderdj82]

Posted: 8/29/04 at 2:18pm

Oh, trust me......I TOTALLY believe in seperation of Church and State. My dad is a preacher (and I hate it for lots of reasons) and he used to be in the air force and he does not understand that there is seperation of church and state in the constitution. STUPID. Also, a lot of christians are saying that this country was founded on christian values............not really true. The founding founders were Deists (which are not christians). But, sorry if I worded that wrong.....I was just saying not to blame ALL christians because it would be the same as me bunching a group of people together because of a few people. Not ALL Christians believe what others do when it comes to situations like this.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/29/04 at 2:18pm

Lady, you see it as an extreme--I see it as the middle ground. You CAN NOT respect all beliefs by referencing the Bible or Torah or whatever.

[Rathnait62]

Posted: 8/29/04 at 2:19pm

How am I shooting myself in the foot? I'm voting for YOUR candidate. Is it because I don't see things as you do in every instance? Is it because I am not wearing blinders? Is it because I realize that neither party is going to welcome gays with open arms?

[nystateomind04]

Posted: 8/29/04 at 2:20pm

But lady, how can Bush back the ban on gay-marriage scientifically? He can't, nor can he find any other reason, except that it is "Sacred", which is bull**** and we all know it. I realize that you support gay marriage, but you have to realize that because Bush can quote from the Bible as his reason for banning civil rights, and get such a thing passed is testiment to the fact that no kind of religion (especially one as corrupt as Christianity) belongs in government.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/29/04 at 2:24pm

Oh please! It has nothing to do with expecting you to agree with me or to wear blinders. I'm not wearing blinders either. But, the way you bounce back and forth comes off like "flip flopping". Or:

It's like you and DGrant and Auggie feel the need to expose a flaw or wound before papa or Lady can.

Don't you worry--they will get to it. You don't have to.

Updated On: 8/29/04 at 02:24 PM

[spiderdj82]

Posted: 8/29/04 at 2:25pm

ok, well I am going to stop posting on this thread before I get shot through the internet or something. lol.

[bwaysinger]

Posted: 8/29/04 at 2:27pm

Lady,
I want to address your issue about Christianity being the religion people take issue with.
I'll tell you why they do. I have absolutely no problem with Christians. I am one, I just like to think I'm much closer to the teachings of Jesus than a lot of people who proclaim to be (look up the only commandments he ever really said to follow. Following them will cause you to follow most of them, but just look at what he said and not what anyone else has told you to do in your life).
People have an extrme intolerance for Christians in this world because, unlike Jews or Buddhists, they're out there actively trying to convert anyone else who doesn't follow their particular belief system. What's more, many Christians think other Christians are hell-bound and want to conver them! Jews and Buddhists have greater respect for people with divergent religious views and don't seek to force people to agree with them or to make an entire country follow a legal system that is based on their own teachings. Now, Islam is highly militant in this way as well, seeking to convert those who are not Islamic and being generally more intolerant to those who do not convert.

Also, I think it's interesing that whoever pointed out the curiosity of why middle or liberal Christians aren't much noted by the public didn't really stumble upon the answer...it's because they make far less noice. There's no middle or liberal Christian frontman like Falwell or Robinson out there proclaiming God's love. Instead, you have the loudmouth Falwell finding a cause by which to proclaim the end times and America as the new Sodom and Gomorrah and browbeating his "subjects" into such abject terror that they're convinced that there's a Jewish and gay agenda to run this country.

[Mattio98]

Posted: 8/29/04 at 2:28pm

Hold on, I think there's a big misconception in this thread. There is absolutely no place for religion in government. That's not a partisan issue, it's not any issue. That is our country. That is our foundation. But were not saying there's no place for RELIGIOUS PEOPLE in government. Only that it can't affect our government and politics.