The Language Issue: A Discussion- Page 2

[SonofMammaMiaSam]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 1:59pm

Every generation from the twentieth century forward has used language to create and define their own culture. The 1920's and the 1960's are good examples of teens using a new language to piss off the man. As Erika said, we do seem to be in warp speed -- there's a lot to be pissed off about.

[Jane2]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 2:09pm

"There are major inequities in this country when it comes to education. If you don't believe spend an afternoon in a "black” or Latino school. You will see. There is a cycle to keep minorities where they are"

This has not been my experience. I spent 25 years teaching in the classsrooms of what ranked as the worst school system in the country. It is true that when a system is considered that needy, it receives a good deal of what's available in terms of financial aid and special programs. Our schools had the state of the art materials and good teachers who worked hard to help our students. I, in particular was a stickler for good grammar and although I taught art, I was able to incorporate many other subjects into my curriculum!

Can you tell me about the cycle to which you referred?

[SorryGrateful]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 2:16pm

mejusthavingfun~ I think language is for communication, judging a person by it is wrong.

Your point is very noble, mejust, and I don't entirely disagree with it. But language is for more than communication from my standpoint as a writer and a lover of language. If language were just for communication, then what point would poetry, literature, even music (with lyrics) serve? Language is the way that most of us are able to express ourselves, whether in speech or writing, and we, as Americans, need to be able to use it to our advantage instead of just bashing it about because we're too lazy to understand what certain things mean.

I know, this all sounds so idealistic. But I'm not saying we should all go around sounding like we're in a Jane Austen novel. But I do believe that the common laws of language, again, verb tenses, etc., need to be observed.

Updated On: 7/6/07 at 02:16 PM

[mejusthavingfun]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 3:09pm

>>>Can you tell me about the cycle to which you referred?

I would like to know more about the school you taught. I have worked very closely with NYC public schools and am quite aware of what goes on here and in districts in California, Chicago and Florida.

In urban areas all across the country blacks and Latinos are dropping out at the rate of 60%. The schools which they in are under funded, mismanaged and have staffs that are not qualified to educate. The literacy rate in this country is only 80%, that number is static. Somehow through all of this “progress” we are still producing portion of our population that cannot read.

In New York City for instance there is a group program called the "New York Teaching Fellows." This group recruits people with any number of bachelor degrees to teach in "high needs" NYC public schools after a quick certification process. No matter what their abilities, these fellows spend most of their days disciplining students. These “high needs” areas are in Bushwick, the South Bronx, places white people generally fear. These kids are not learning. These are not educators and why on Earth start them in the worst schools in the nation?

I have met 18-year-old 9th graders who cannot read and are still in the system. I have seen auditoriums used for classrooms, with 3 classes going concurrently. No Child Left Behind is an under funded government program that has done nothing for these students. Teachers working to teach to these standardized tests do NOTHING for pedagogical standards that are in place to have proper understanding. NCLB has also forced districts to lower standards in order to show progress and keep a cash flow.

Inner city schools also often lack technology and basic equipment (books/supplies) to teach with. Many teachers supply their own materials.

You see the cycle starts there. These kids leave school, enter a world without a formal education and seek employment. Factory work is gone and there isn’t much else for the untrained that pays above the minimum wage. These kids end up just like their parents and their very own children will. Poor, uneducated, oppressed. At least on welfare you can qualify for medicare.



Updated On: 7/6/07 at 03:09 PM

[jasonf]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 3:21pm

Sorry if this has been brought up already, I just skimmed the rest of the thread, but I do think a lot of the problem revolves around under-funded schools and under-paid teachers. Of course, that's a huge bias on my part, but teachers simply aren't paid enough to care about things like grammar when they have to worry about so many other things for so little pay. Of course, there are many teachers out there who do care beyond what they're being compensated for (I'd like to think I'm one of them), but the under-funding of schools and under-pay of teachers in this country is DIRECTLY linked to the absolute lack of emphasis put on education by the government and society in general. People who speak correctly or are educated are classified as "uncool" or "geeks" or "nerds." In too many places, not amongst peers, mind you, but where adults are running the show, it is looked down upon to be correct. Even in my own school, there are teachers who freely admit they can't write to save their lives, they could care less about speaking properly, and they obviously, as a result, make no effort to impart good grammar to our students. There's only so much any one teacher can doversus the insurmountable odds of a government not willing to financially back good education, and a society that, in general, cares even less.

[Jane2]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 3:34pm

Mejust-I taught in most of the public schools in Jersey City, NJ. Based on reading and math scores, we were deemed the lowest scoring system in the country. Therefore, we were the first to be taken over by the state.

The shame is that by having different people at the top levels in administration, it does nothing to improve the scores of the students. You can shift the staff around until they're dizzy, but it won't make a difference.

Yes, there are poor teachers as there are poor doctors, lawyers, etc. But I can honestly say that most of the teachers with whom I came in contact over the 25 years, the majority are bright, dedicated, and work more than overtime to help their students.

What's the problem? Well, I'll tell you one of them. Many students are disabled before they even come to school. By disabled, I mean malnourished, sleep deprived, sickly, traumatized by events outside of school (if you need specifics, I'll provide them), and otherwise not in the best condition to learn. This is a damn shame, and it's not limited to any one ethnic group.

I think the education has to begin with the home environment.

[jasonf]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 4:05pm

I do agree with Jane about that -- a lot of problems come from home -- however, I do believe that a lot of THOSE problems come from the general poor attitude towards education in our society. It's a vicious cycle - and it won't end in the home - if it's going to, it needs to be at school.

[Jane2]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 4:35pm

Jason, I'm talking about problems in the home that don't necessarily have to do with attitudes towards education. I'm talking about poverty, violence, stress, and abuse. Many small children experience this at home, not at school. They aren't working with their full potential because of conditions out of their control. It will not end in school. If the children even physically show up to school, they may not be there mentally.

The child study teams who test for such special needs have lists which are much too long to get through during the school year. It really is a pity.

[jasonf]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 4:37pm

Jane - you're absolutely right - but where do THOSE problems stem from? Poverty, violence, stress and abuse can, in most cases, be traced back to a lack of education on the part of the parents. Not always, of course, but in MOST cases, it started because of a failed education system.

[Jane2]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 4:41pm

True, Jason, this is a huge problem. I've spent so many years thinking about it and discussing it with fellow teachers. I guess there's no one answer. We need a solution because this country is going downhill fast because of it.

[jasonf]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 4:55pm

No, there isn't one answer, and maybe I'm still young and naive, but I really think the problems with this country will only be fixed once teachers are paid properly. Think about it -in any advanced society you look at, teachers are well respected people. It just so happens we live in a capatilist society where the importance of a job, or how well you do your job, falls far behind how many dollars and cents you take home in determining the relative respect you get. Teachers are no longer respected in this country because we don't get the money. A lack of respect for teachers, the backbone of education, means a lack of education for the masses. To bring this back around to the topic at hand, that is why our national language has fallen apart, and is seems that "education" is more of a stigma than something to be respected. Trouble is, the people in charge got there without the proper education or the proper respect for education, and continue to thrive as such -- therefore they see no problems with where the rest of the country is headed.

[Jane2]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 5:05pm

He!! yes! Teachers are ranked up in the top three most stressful jobs along with air traffic controllers and firefighters. We aren't paid in kind.

Also-in the corporate world, you can advance in position and in salary, depending upon performance. There's no limit to how much you can make. Why, the Christmas bonuses for many executives was well into six figures. Ever hear of a teacher making that in a year? HA!

There's no reward for good service in teaching, nor punishment for poor performance. Actually, I'm going to say something which some here may not believe, but it's true.

Poor performance by a teacher can sometimes lead to rewards. How, you may ask?
I've seen it several times. A teacher proves that he/she cannot control a classroom. What is the solution? Put him/her in a position which doesn't require controlling a classroom. Something like one on one reading, or maybe a desk job.

Conversely, if you prove to be an excellent teacher, who can handle the most extreme situations, you are then given the most extreme situations whenever possible. (the worst students, the biggest class, etc.)

Sad situation.

[Raviolisun]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 5:11pm

This is from a bulletin on MySpace posted by a girl who moved here from Germany a year ago. She spoke fine when I first met her, and now look at this:

yea thass koo.

so that wud be wednesdae i think,
cuz they sed we are prolly leaving thursdae.

God, it doesn't get any worse than that.

[SorryGrateful]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 5:47pm

Jesus, Ravi. That's disturbing.

[Rathnait62]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 5:54pm

You want disturbing? This, posted by a teacher on this thread:

"they could care less about speaking properly,"

[javero]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 6:03pm

Rath, perhaps you should have written
"they could care less [sic] about speaking properly," LOL.

Updated On: 7/6/07 at 06:03 PM

[jasonf]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 6:18pm

There's nothing wrong with that phrase - it's an idiom, and a commonly accepted one at that. Besides, even if it's not up to the standards of the best English, I would hardly qualify that as disturbing or even a serious breach. Get over yourself, Rath.

Jane - there's a teacher in my school who fits what you described exactly. Earlier this year, this teacher (a basic skills teacher) actually told two of my students that they were stupid. These are two girls who already had fairly low self-esteem due to being in the basic skills reading room, and this teacher actually said to them "you're stupid." When confronted by another teacher about it, she didn't deny it at all. To further the point, after state testing, she has little to do in the building. The administration has decided to let her decide what she'll do with her time for the last THREE MONTHS of school. Now, the MATH basic skills teacher held classes, pulling students who needed help, and worked with them. This teacher decided she would "visit" LA classes for a time and then decide. She came to my colleagues class for a week, sat in the back drinking her coffee, and then never bothered to show up again. Two months later, when she decided to take a day off to go to the beach (I kid you not), her sub came into my colleagues classroom saying that her schedule indicated she should be there! When teachers like this flourish in our school systems, it's no wonder our educational system is what it is.

[Elphaba]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 6:48pm

I am more concerned when I see a 13 or 14 year old teen at the Vietnam Memorial in DC with a shirt showing the Statue of Liberty and says 'Welcome to America. NOW SPEAK ENGLISH!'

talk about insulting to anyone whose native tongue is other than English.

We are becoming as bad as the French.

[jasonf]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 6:58pm

That's symptomatic of the problem, though, Elphaba. One, we HAVE no standard of language in this country; two, we worry more about foreigners than about ourselves.

[Elphaba]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 7:00pm

very true, Jason.

[Jane2]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 9:18pm

Yeah, Jason, doesn't it kill you to see another teacher reading a newspaper all day with their feet up and collecting the same salary as you?

[jasonf]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 10:50pm

Or a lot more - seeing as they're more likely very tenured.

[rgaywrites]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 11:40pm

I understand and respect many of the points being made here. But as others have alluded, many of the issues with how different groups use language are based on economic inequalities. Schools are funded by property taxes and in inner city and rural areas. Those public schools have very little to work with. The public school system is quite bad and some of the blame has to lie there.

Having said that, poor speaking and writing skills aren't unique to black people. I see white suburban kids using slang all the time. I also teach writing at the university level at a predominantly white university. The things I see in my classroom are appalling. Many students are unable to coherently construct sentences, use vocabulary appropriately or demonstrate an understanding of the basic rules of grammar. It is disheartening, that children get to this point, at a pretty good school, where they are unable to communicate. I've had students ask if they can write their papers "the way that they talk," because that's easier.

I'd also note that linguists have extensively studied the dialect used by many African Americans and it has been proven that Ebonics or African American Vernacular English (AAVE) has a syntactical structure like any other language. To assert that African Americans aren't speaking correctly is not necessarily true. If you're at all interested in the subject, a great place to start is a book called English With an Accent by Rosina Lippi-Green. Wikipedia also offers an overview though as with all things Wikipedia, take it with a grain of salt. Another great academic who deals with the issue of other Englishes is Suresh Canagarajah.

Finally, I will admit that personally I do struggle with people who use AAVE (or other such slang) because you simply cannot succeed in this world if you cannot communicate effectively. Sometimes, when I'm working with a student and I can't understand what they're saying, I want to shake them, vigorously. I try to be accepting of a wide range of Englishes but oh it is hard. It is very very hard.
Updated On: 7/6/07 at 11:40 PM

[jasonf]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 11:47pm

Good points, rgaywrites. While I don't dismiss Ebonics as a spoken dialect any more than I would the idioms of a Southern dialect, in a formal setting where papers are being written and communication is the focus, there is no place for it. An English teacher shouldn't accept that in a paper (or any other dialect) any more than they should a paper written in French.

[Jane2]

Posted: 7/6/07 at 11:47pm

I'm aware that what I'm going to say has a negative slant, but I feel that slowly but surely the use of proper grammar is fading and the slang is being more and more accepted. It's only a matter of time when it won't matter at all if you use the language correctly or not.

It's already happened with spelling. I see spelling mistakes all along the way from local signage to legal documents.