The Officially Official Manoel Felciano Love Thread- Page 177
The Officially Official Manoel Felciano Love Thread
#4400The Land of Mano, home of WASMRNC
Posted: 3/27/06 at 7:18pm
Me neither!
I thought that it was like... a crow...symbolic of...something dark? I don't know.
#4401The Land of Mano, home of WASMRNC
Posted: 3/27/06 at 7:19pm
I really love the moment between Toby and Pirelli right before Greenfinch and Linnet Bird, with the flute and the violin.
Oh, also, in the revival -- at first I thought Pirelli used to be a man, but since Donna is playing Pirelli, it's now a woman. But then when I saw it again, I got confused. Is it that Pirelli is still a man, and Donna's playing a guy? And... why?
I know that's a dumb question. I have many.
ihearttheatre
Broadway Legend Joined: 10/12/05
#4402The Land of Mano, home of WASMRNC
Posted: 3/27/06 at 7:22pmI went throough almost the exact same thought process about Pirelli, Emcee. Except, without seeing it twice. Anyone know?
#4403The Land of Mano, home of WASMRNC
Posted: 3/27/06 at 7:23pmChiiiica, where are you?
#4404The Land of Mano, home of WASMRNC
Posted: 3/27/06 at 7:24pm
Typing up a response, maybe. 
ihearttheatre
Broadway Legend Joined: 10/12/05
#4405The Land of Mano, home of WASMRNC
Posted: 3/27/06 at 7:24pmI know it had something to do with balancing the vocals...
#4406The Land of Mano, home of WASMRNC
Posted: 3/27/06 at 7:25pmI was thinking it might be something like that. And it wouldn't make sense, period-wise, to have the character be female, would it?
ihearttheatre
Broadway Legend Joined: 10/12/05
#4407The Land of Mano, home of WASMRNC
Posted: 3/27/06 at 7:28pmBut if it's taking place in Toby's head, would that matter?
#4408The Land of Mano, home of WASMRNC
Posted: 3/27/06 at 7:29pm
I've talked a LOT about that in other Sweeney threads here.
I think there's a gender reversal at play. And that it's ambiguous on purpose. In the original production, when Pirelli confronts Sweeney Todd, he drops the Italian accent, and uses an Irish one. He says "I was just a down and out Irish lad you hired for a few weeks..."
However, in THIS production, Donna Lynne drops the Italian accent, but takes on a natural, feminine voice. The line has been changed to "I was just a down and out you hired"
Both the words Irish AND lad were dropped. Which HAS to be considered. I think there's an underlined idea that "Pirelli" COULD be a woman dressed as a man. But it's ambiguous on purpose. I've argued that there's a strong whiff of seduction in that scene. the way Donna says her lines suggests some kind of sexual past with Sweeney Todd. In which case, he's clearly NOT a victim in that scene- he's ALSO been guilty of something in the past.
It also works into the themes of violence against women in this show. Not just the objectifying of Johanna, but Sweeney's OWN very violent behavior and disdain towards Mrs Lovett (which, of course, is more of a sexual/violent game). eta: Which is representative of a general disdain towards women. Many women are victimized in this show: the Beggar Woman (at whom Sweeney scoffs), and of course Lucy. The Beadle says "Women, my lord, are weak" - that's an important theme. How men take advantage of, and are violent towards women. And Sweeney is also guilty of that.
Another idea I came up with recently was that because we're seeing the show through TOBY'S eyes (or as he remembers, or constructs the events), it makes sense for him to visualize Pirelli as a maternal figure. Given his history of abuse, and the violence of maternal love. So, as he remembers Pirelli, he PROJECTS his desires for maternal love onto his facade. Ergo, Pirelli becomes an ambiguous figure: male, yet also female.
Did any of that make any sense? lol
Updated On: 3/27/06 at 07:29 PM
ihearttheatre
Broadway Legend Joined: 10/12/05
#4409The Land of Mano, home of WASMRNC
Posted: 3/27/06 at 7:33pmThat's really interesting. It amazes me how much there is to this show.
#4410The Land of Mano, home of WASMRNC
Posted: 3/27/06 at 7:34pmIt also makes me realize how much totally went right past me
#4411The Land of Mano, home of WASMRNC
Posted: 3/27/06 at 7:35pm
Well, yeah, iheartheatre, exactly. Because if Toby is re-living this event that actually did happen to him, but it's being re-enacted by these other people around him, then they're -- in a sense -- actors. So it wouldn't matter all that much. But even if it something like that, I'd wonder if it were a conscious decision relating to the story, or if it were something logistical, like vocal balancing, you know?
I saw that scene as kind of seductive, too, Chica.... but I thought I was crazy, because I couldn't find a reason for why that might be. Unless "hire" means, well, not as a worker.
That also makes perfect sense about Toby. I, for some reason, am often very drawn to character like that -- the character whose story you see, or through whose eyes the story is told. Those central, sometimes omniscent characters are the ones that I really latch onto, for whatever reason. I think that's why I like so much that this is very clearly not just a normal narration of events, but clearly seen as Toby relives it.
ETA -- this is obviously why people always say Sondheim's works do well with repeated viewings. There's always more to pick up on. hah. After seeing it on Friday, I was like "YES! I get it!"
But no. :)
#4412The Land of Mano, home of WASMRNC
Posted: 3/27/06 at 7:37pmWell, I'm a grad lit student. I have a tendency to read too much into things. But, damnit, I think I'm on to something there!! I've been dying to ask Donna about this. I know that there's a TECHNICAL reason for why she was cast (they needed more female voices). But that doesn't mean there's no significance to the role reversal. I loved that Pirelli was being played by a woman, and I do think it adds to themes of gender power struggles in the show.
#4413The Land of Mano, home of WASMRNC
Posted: 3/27/06 at 7:39pmIt also FURTHER adds to the explanation as far as Toby goes, especially if we're to think part of his trouble is this idea of the father killing the mother. Because not only does Sweeney kill Lovett, he kills Pirelli, too.
ihearttheatre
Broadway Legend Joined: 10/12/05
#4414The Land of Mano, home of WASMRNC
Posted: 3/27/06 at 7:45pmOK, I'm going to rent the DVD this weekend because I missed soooo much. My brain is going to implode. Thanks, Sondheim.
Bohemian1232
Broadway Legend Joined: 10/26/05
#4415The Land of Mano, home of WASMRNC
Posted: 3/27/06 at 7:45pmThanks to you guys, this whole thing is starting to make more sense. Just when I think that I've gotten it...
#4416The Land of Mano, home of WASMRNC
Posted: 3/27/06 at 7:45pmI'm gonna watch mine soon, really. I'm sure I can find time this weekend.
#4417The Land of Mano, home of WASMRNC
Posted: 3/27/06 at 7:47pm
Yes, exactly!!
And also, we have to consider that Donna plays the doctor who's helping Toby go through therapy. And the relationship between a doctor and a patient in an insane asylum is FRAUGHT with violence. Mano did a lot of research on lobotomies, and electro shock,etc. If you think about it, it's very similar to an abusive parent. They may love the child, but they HURT it. Just like that type of medical treatment MAY want the best for the patient, but still causes a lot of pain and frustration.
Which is why the fact that Donna gives Toby some pills during the show is so great. Cause that therapy, much like Toby's need to hold onto motherly love, is addictive. And poor Toby has never known love that wasn't tied in with violence. So in his head, Pirelli (who was also VERY abusive to poor Toby) is another maternal figure.
(I hope this is the day Mano decides to read the thread, so he knows we're not just silly and incoherent...lol)
ihearttheatre
Broadway Legend Joined: 10/12/05
#4418The Land of Mano, home of WASMRNC
Posted: 3/27/06 at 7:48pmTo be completely honest, I was really confused by Fogg. It's been almost six months, but I remember not fully understanding his significance. I know that's stupid and I should know, but I don't.
#4419The Land of Mano, home of WASMRNC
Posted: 3/27/06 at 7:51pm
Fogg is just the owner of the insane asylum where the Judge locks up Johanna (Fogg's asylum for the mentally deranged). He also serves as another of Toby's "doctors".
He basically represents another faction of the corrupt authorities in society. Like the Judge, (who should stand for justice), or the Beadle, (who's a Church figure, yet totally violent and corrupt), Fogg is the doctor who should be treating those who need it, but, rather, abuses the weak.
Updated On: 3/27/06 at 07:51 PM
#4420The Land of Mano, home of WASMRNC
Posted: 3/27/06 at 7:51pm
Most of the interaction you see between Toby and the doctor is fairly violent. She just binds and gags him. But since she is helping him for the better, I'd imagine he does have *some* sort of attachment to her -- perhaps that's why in his re-enactment, she's "playing" the character who took him in.
I didn't catch the part with the pills, but I feel like that also pulls you a little bit out of the story -- since those pills could be in the time, or it could be a reminder that this is a flashback... of sorts. I wonder what you're "supposed" to think with regards to time.
Fogg and the Beadle still confuse me a little bit.
(Well, it IS his day off.)
#4421The Land of Mano, home of WASMRNC
Posted: 3/27/06 at 7:54pm
Donna Lynne's Pirelil is just a force of nature. No gender required. :p
Liz, what does the acromyn thing mean? The one that Mano wrote?
#4422The Land of Mano, home of WASMRNC
Posted: 3/27/06 at 7:56pmI...think I'm getting more confused. Or maybe now there's just more thoughts swarming around in my head.
#4423The Land of Mano, home of WASMRNC
Posted: 3/27/06 at 7:56pmThis has been fun. I'm off to numb my mind with some TV for a bit. :)
#4424The Land of Mano, home of WASMRNC
Posted: 3/27/06 at 7:57pm
I know what you mean. But there are MANY things going on in this production that serve to illustrate that this isn't happening in real time. Like Toby mouthing along to some lines, or the aforementioned "pill scene". I actually asked Donna about that on Saturday. She told me that the actors need to take throat lozenges during the show, since they never leave the stage. So they decided to incorporate that as part of the storytelling. So it makes sense to have the doctor give Toby some pills.
Any confusion you have about the story would be GREATLY cleared up if you watch the Harold Prince production on DVD. John Doyle's version is so conceptualized, that it can be confusing at times. But the original production is very straightforward, and easy to follow.
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