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The difficulty and reality of AIDS in our world today. — Page 3

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#51

The cunundrum on oral sex

OK, kids. I have a question to throw out.

The latest info tells us that sucking is fairly safe - even swallowing.

My best friend (did lots of volunteer AIDS work in L.A. in the '80s) says that for him, a sex act is unsatisfying unless he swallows. And he has done so from HIV+ guys. He remains HIV-.

Am I wrong in thinking that what he is doing is EXTREMELY risky?
I can't convince myself that he's being safe.

And do I miss swallowing? YOU BET.
"Christ, Bette Davis?!?!"

Updated On: 2/15/05 at 02:17 PM

#52

The cunundrum on oral sex

When I went for my last AIDS test (because of a scare that really shouldn't have been a scare because, I found out, I really didn't do anything to put myself at great risk), my counselor told me 'It's not a particularly easy disease to catch.'

We then went through all the different types of behavior I engage in. Not to sound prudish, but I've never swallowed...I've never even let someone you-know-what in my mouth. So, my oral life seemed to be fine.

Last September, a friend went through a pretty bad HIV scare. He got a call one night from a guy he used to date saying he had converted and my friend should get tested. He panicked...and so did I. They had barebacked twice with my friend being the bottom. Turns out he was negative. Much to everyone's relief.

Now that I've told you all this, I defer to Namo, whom I know would have a much clearer answer than I.
"I'm so looking forward to a time when all the Reagan Democrats are dead."
#53

The cunundrum on oral sex

Just remember... there is no such thing as safe sex, only 'safer' sex.

Your friends that swallow/bareback are EXTREMELY lucky. Yes, the saliva in the mouth can kill the HIV, but what if you have a small sore? What if you tore your gums a bit while brushing? And don't even get me started on barebacking!
Happy, smile! Sad, frown! Use the corresponding face with the corresponding emotion! - Kate (Meg Ryan), French Kiss
#54

The cunundrum on oral sex

Agreed! Until they can tell me with 100% certainty that swallowing is safe, I won't view it that way. In my opinion having any sexual contact with anyone who is known to be HIV+ is risky, no matter the precautions taken.
#55

The cunundrum on oral sex

Thanks Namo! I was wondering when (not if) you were going to weigh in on the subject. When I spoke of the number of infections, I was referring to mainly the US (grouped with Western Europe, Japan, Australia and New Zealand) and information I had gathered from UNAIDS which shows a steady decline in new HIV infections from 1985-1999, but not the US alone. But I also see that MHRA states that the number of new infections in the US has remained steady at 40,000 since 1992. I also see that AMFAR's strategy is to target injection drug user's as a means of reducing new infections by 50%. I have read vaious reports stating that the number of new infections in San Francisco has both risen and declined recently. Regardless, my basic point is still the same: What is it going to take for people to stop infecting each other? It's like CurtainUp's comments about self-destruction and why I don't feel they are completely valid to this discussion. It's the difference between suicide and homocide.

Obviously, the gay community put forth more effort in AIDS Awareness than any other community or government organization in the country and should be applauded and recognized for the heroic effort. But it seems there has been a decline. If I go to bar in Chicago, I see tons of ads for Syphilis Awareness, but HIV/AIDS has definitely taken a back seat as if the job has been done and it's time to move on to something else. Now that is an extremist view, but there has certainly been a major decline in AIDS Awareness campaigns. And now the tie-in to crystal meth and HIV. Both have been around since at least the 80s that I can remember and I know there is a new surge of crystal meth abuse in gay community, but are we just discovering the possible link in the drug and the likelihood of infection? It was my understanding that MOST recreational drugs are likely to decrease inhibitions, impair judgement and increase libido. But if we need to use crystal meth as a catalyst to renew interest in safe sex, then so be it. It's a revisal of Just Say No meets Safe Sex, but not an entirely new production. And just remember, there IS such a thing as "safe sex" because sex does not always cause harm.

"But what that does mean, is that 70% of gay men ARE using condoms for anal sex. And that, as Martha would say, is a GOOD THING."

But it's NOT GOOD ENOUGH. That's how I feel, I guess. So if all these people who know better are willing to infect themselves and others, what do you do? I only have opinions, but not answers. I sure wish I did.
"What can you expect from a bunch of seitan worshippers?" - Reginald Tresilian
#56

The cunundrum on oral sex

MMatt, you perfectly illustrate the conflicting impulses that are often at work in the gay male community, which is what I will call The Best Little Boy in the World Syndrome vs. The Sexual Outlaw Syndrome. Although these are not discreet categories without a LOT of overlap, I think they are helpful conversational frames. On the one hand you have the good little gay boys who were picked on growing up for being different who become huge overachievers just to prove that they are beyond perfect.

You might be surprised to realize that these kinds of guys are VERY vulnerable to crystal addiction, because they typically are Type A personalities, the kind who proudly say they "work hard and play harder." So they may try crystal one weekend and they love the way it makes them feel and the next weekend they do it two nights and they "play hard" and a few more weekends of this and the post-crystal crash hits em hard on Monday morning so they do a bump to get them through the work day and they get EVEN MORE accomplished at work than they usually do, so they do another bump to keep the crash at bay and before long, these guys who have prided themselves at always being at the top of their game, academically, professionally, etc., are in the grips of something they can not stop doing. I mean, changes happen in their bodies and they literally can not stop doing it.

Now, the part of me that is interested in public health, knows that 70% behavior change is basically unprecedented in such a short period of time. It's never going to be enough for The Best Little Boys in the World, like you MMatt, however. Larry Kramer comes from that POV too, as exhibited by his tendencies to always say we are "the best, the brightest, the smartest, the richest..." as if saying so makes that true of all of us! And you can feel his palpable rage at the Sexual Outlaws. What else could inspire the vituperative exhortations to "tell gay men to stop having sex!" The Very Best Little Boys in the World would, of course, but they don't exist. Real men have drives.

The impulse on the other hand is that of The Sexual Outlaw, which I take from the name of a very great book by John Rechy. This is the part of the gay male character that, particularly in the '60s and '70s, said, "You think I am immoral and disgusting and have no rights, well, I'll show you! I'll do things you're even scared to think about." This impulse does not particularly dovetail with "Good little gay boys always behave THIS way..." and often inspires the opposite behavior. That's why a lot of the barebacking imagery evolved with an "outlaw" sensibility. What's wilder than a bucking bronco in the Wild West that you ride bareback, I ask you? It's as untamed and risky as a rodeo, but has quite an exhilerating rush!

As for the oral sex debate, let me illustrate the difficulties of talking about it with the sort of discussion point that ElTico makes that is really bad public health discussion: "Your friends that swallow/bareback are EXTREMELY lucky."

Wellllllllllllllll, conflating unprotected oral sex with unprotected anal sex, lumping them together that way, is the sort of thing Larry Kramer does all the time. It's innacurate, unhelpful, and can actually encourage risky behavior. If a person thinks of both of those things as equally risky and he swallows once after years of not doing so, he might say, "Well, I've done that, I might as well do the other now since I probably got HIV...."

Let's look at it as a continuum of risk. (Now, I know this is not an easy answer, but as I have been trying to say through my posts here, the easy answers never really look at the complexities of people's lives and how they navigate these complexities.)

By far, unprotected anal sex is THE riskiest sexual activity. Of course, for it to BE risky, one partner has to be HIV+ and one has to be HIV-. Unprotected anal sex with two HIV- partners has no risk. This seems obvious, but in the popular imagination, whenever two men engage in that, it seems as if people believe spontaneous infections can happen.

Oral sex is BY FAR less risky than anal sex. Unprotected, of course. A long term study out of San Francisco, called the HOTS Study (I can't remember what it stands for but "oral transmission" is in there), of serodiscordant couples (one is poz one is not) showed that there were NO seroconversions as a result of oral sex. None. Some of the guys DID swallow.

But what about all those self-reports of guys who say they were infected that way? Well, there still is a taboo about talking about what we really do when we have sex, and saying, in 2005, that you let some guy penetrate you without a condom is still a very very difficult thing to do. It's amazing, if not statistically impossible, how many HIV prevention/education workers who seroconverted in the 1990s report their only risk as being oral. But certainly, that would be a group that would have great diffculty in being honest about the kind of sex they had and in what conditions because if ANY Best Little Boys in the World should "know better," it's that group!

What we have to do is decide how much risk we ourselves can live with. If unprotected oral without swallowing is as risky as driving a car every day (which is stastically pretty risky), would that be tolerable to you? If swallowing is as risky as eating a diet heavy in meats and carbs, is THAT okay to you?

I too know somebody who claims to have swallowed all through the epidemic and claims he is negative. He too knew for a fact that he has swallowed from poz guys. Well, as luck would have it, I ended up in an "environment" where we shared some space where I could actually watch his behavior. There was a guy who obviously had been on the treatment protocol for a while and therefore exhibited physical characteristics, and the guy I know did not swallow. When the other man left I said, "I noticed you did not swallow." He replied, "Well, I don't when the guy OBVIOUSLY has HIV." So it was interesting, because my point in telling that story is that what we say we do is often very different from what we actually do. How we assess risk and the things that influence that assessment vary from day to day.

Bottom line, unprotected anal sex with a partner whose status is different from yours is BY FAR the riskiest thing you can do. Nobody in your doctor's office is going to tell you that unprotected oral without swallowing is risk-free, but I think most of us can admit that if it was that easy to transmit HIV that way, most of us probably wouldn't be here typing on this website.

THE bigger problem right now, is crystal meth. Most health centers that work with men who have sex with men will tell you that most, if not all, new seroconversions right now are found after a person comes in to deal with his crystal addiction.
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Updated On: 2/15/05 at 05:14 PM

#57

The cunundrum on oral sex

when will i learn to eat the brownies that i bought at the home school association bake sale before i read this thread?
r.i.p. marco, my guardian angel.

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pray to st. jude

i'm a sonic reducer

he was the gimmicky sort

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#58

The cunundrum on oral sex

You'll ruin your dinner.

P.S. MMatt, the crystal of this wave makes the '80s crystal look like cocaine and a can of Jolt. The new stuff is MUCH more amped up.
Twitter @NamoInExile Instagram none
#59

The cunundrum on oral sex

"Now, the part of me that is interested in public health, knows that 70% behavior change is basically unprecedented in such a short period of time. It's never going to be enough for The Best Little Boys in the World, like you MMatt, however."

Huh? Unless I'm reading this wrong, are you categorizing me as a Best Little Boy in the World?

PS - I wasn't aware the "new" crystal was so drastically different.
"What can you expect from a bunch of seitan worshippers?" - Reginald Tresilian

Updated On: 2/15/05 at 05:33 PM

#60

The cunundrum on oral sex

In a way, yeah. What I mean is, you seem to strive to be somebody who wants to be The Best. On his best behavior. Doing the best possible job. Not as somebody who can say "70% is great! How can we help get it even better?" but rather "THAT IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH."

I took that name Best Little Boy in the World from the Andrew Tobias book about coming of age and believing that was what he had to be to be loved. It's not an insult, it's just what I pereceive as your world view, as opposed to the outlaw one!
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#61

The cunundrum on oral sex

Excellent post, Namo.

But if you use John Rechy's title and credit him by name, yought to pay the same respect to "John Reid" (early pen name for the then-closeted Andrew Tobias), the author of "Best Little Boy in the World."

I have lost one of my best friends, Stephen, to crystal. Presumably he's still alive, but he's cut off contact with all of his old friends.

Having lost so many friends to AIDS in the 80s and 90s, this new epidemic infuriates me. I've known 2 guys who were "addicted" and then able to stop using crystal and about a dozen who used it "casually" and then stopped, but more and more I see guys who become like the Undead on tina.

I think someone on this thread said that the new generation won't understand until they bury dozens of young friends, like we did. But what if they simply become the Undead, like Stephen?
#62

The cunundrum on oral sex

Namo - Thanks for clearing that up. Personally, I strive to achieve better (not necessarily THE BEST) based on recognizing and learning from my mistakes in the past (of which they are numerous). Had you known me 15 years ago, you probably would have categorized me quite differently. I know I can never be The Best and luckily, I understand that I don't have to be. Back to the subject, you are right. "70% is great! How can we help get it even better?" is a far more productive and appropriate response. I got pretty caught up and felt quite emotional when reading and respoding to this thread because I feel like we're slipping backwards when we've had ample reasons to be moving forwards.
"What can you expect from a bunch of seitan worshippers?" - Reginald Tresilian
#63

The cunundrum on oral sex

I'll never forget going over my sexual history with my counselor at Callen/Lourde and him looking me in the eye and saying, 'In all my years of doing this, I've never once met anyone who became HIV+ from oral sex.'

When my test came back negative, I was invited to join a discussion group, kind of like group therapy, of men who recently tested HIV- and who wished to stay that way. It was a fascinating 10 weeks in which we discussed, very frankly, our behavior and what modifications we can make to keep ourselves safe. We also discussed the different risks different sex acts present and what we each would consider an acceptable risk. It kept me very sex-positive while also giving me some very specific tools to keep myself HIV-.

The real world is so much harder to negotiate than we have been led to believe. The correct information is out there, but so few of us have the time and energy to spend digging through the sh*t to get to it.
"I'm so looking forward to a time when all the Reagan Democrats are dead."
#64

The cunundrum on oral sex

I couldn't remember "John Reid" for the life of me, but I figured once Tobias admitted it was him, that it would be okay.

I think this is a very different time and a very different set of circumstances than when the epidemic first hit. One Gen Xer said to me years ago, "When you were around and the epidemic hit, it was like an atomic bomb going off in the community. For us, we never knew a world WITHOUT HIV and it's always been more like a very annoying buzz in the background of everything we do." Of course the buzz became even more muted in the years since.

Things change, circumstances change. People ARE moving forward. The CDC is even doing online research that will really give prevention people a handle on what it is guys are doing online and then offline, and what the gold standard of prevention strategies for that community will be. They've spent a year gathering info from men who have sex with men in over 25 cities around the country, perhaps some of you took part in the survey. That will be incredibly helpful info to prevention people. And a reminder that if somebody asks you to do an online or in person national prevention survey, SAY YES! And be honest! You'll even get paid.


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#65

The cunundrum on oral sex

My god, my answers to that survey NOW would be SO boring! Now, a few years ago . . . The cunundrum on oral sex
#66

The cunundrum on oral sex

Yeah, but boring people have to say yes to surveys too so as to get a good sample with statistically significant info. So say yes if you are chosen. Many are called...

Robbie, thanks for what you just posted... that's what I have been trying to say: it's really complicated, people need praise for even TRYING to negotiate it. It's easy to lose sight of two very important points, most negative people want to stay negative and most positive guys do not want to spread HIV. And between those two points lies a whole lotta murky water!

That's it for me for now. Off to see Inside Deep Throat which will not be able to tell me a thing I don't already know about a) the movie, b) the performers, or c) the practice. But I SO cannot wait.

Ciao for now all. Harry Reems, I'm coming! So to speak!
Twitter @NamoInExile Instagram none

Updated On: 2/15/05 at 06:03 PM

#67

The cunundrum on oral sex

This thread was started in the middle of the night with far too little sleep and too much emotion at play. I would very much like to thank Namo for the amount of time and effort he gave to putting this discussion in perspective, and for keeping it grounded in fact. This is an important topic, and he made it possible for many here to learn and be more aware - at least I know that was the effect for me.
#68

The cunundrum on oral sex

Well, D, I was away from my computer for a couple of weeks and it's very easy to think about not logging back on and getting into the thick of things again. But inevitably, something pulls me back to posting. This time it was this thread, after glancing at the board for the past few days and not feeling motivated to log in. And the discussion was a lively one.

We now rejoin our regular discussion of boring classes and hard paper writing, already in progress.
Twitter @NamoInExile Instagram none

Updated On: 2/16/05 at 12:05 AM

#69

The cunundrum on oral sex

And I assume from your icon that your evening's activity was sufficiently stimulating The cunundrum on oral sex
#70

The cunundrum on oral sex

There is NO safe sex. The only way to be sure; is abstinence. We all know thats not gonna happen but still- don't think AIDS and HIV are the only 2 things that can be considered unsafe sex.

Now, just a question. This can be annoynomous if you choose. Well, I suppose that is if you choose to make a new SN.

If you met a person that you love with all your heart and you start dating and 3 years later you realize how much they mean to you....blah, blah, blah. *And, this situation is supposedly to be that you haven't had sex with the person yet.* Anyway- after like 3 or 4 years you decide that sex is now the right thing. You talk to your partner about it and he/she tells you that they have AIDS or HIV. You knew this person for 4 years, you know you love them, they are the sweetest person and you couldn't see yourself with anyone else; would you have sex with them?

As my roomate told me, "If I were in love with them, yes I would...I'm not going to deprive me or them of 'feeling good.' If they are willing to have sex with me, I'm down with it. Love means that I would die for that person. And if I am truly in love with that person...then getting HIV/AIDS is worth it to me. I am not going to end a great relationship by not having sex with someone who I truely love, no matter if they have AIDS/HIV or not"

Personally, I was just taken back. I'm not sure how I feel specifically but her words were like "Woah!" It was a shock to me that she would be so adament and sure about it. It's not only her, if anyone said that I'd react the same.

BUT...
To each his own...
People like you are the reason I'm on medication.
#71

The cunundrum on oral sex

Raggy - you're wandering into VERY dangerous territory with that post. Essentially you're asking if people's status needs to be a dividing line amongst us.

Why is it assumed in your post that the one who is negative would have to convert to positive within the relationship?

What if you were in love with someone and then they were diagnosed with cancer - would you run?

And, I'm sorry, but I HAVE to comment on this - 3 or 4 YEARS into a relationship without sex? WOW - I can honestly say I've never heard of such a thing.
#72

The cunundrum on oral sex

Oh my Raggy, there's just so MUCH you haven't thought of in your scenario, I am not sure where to begin. How and why did the platonic person you are absolutely sure you're in love with after dating for what must have been the four longest and most boring years in history keep from you something as major as HIV status? In fact, DO they have AIDS or are they HIV+ but have not progressed to AIDS? There IS a difference, but you don't differentiate. One way a person who is HIV+ avoids progressing to AIDS after an extended period of time is by being on treatment. How and why did this person keep that fact away from you?

I would suggest that if the person knows that you are likely to freak out over their status that even though YOU may think they are the right person for you, YOU most definitely are not the right person for them.

Your roommate, on the other hand, by being open is also probably open enough to learn that there are many pleasurable things that two people can do together that are completely safe, so let's just dispense with your "there is NO safe sex" lie right now, shall we. And really there is nothing that two people could want to do sexually (except swap blood, semen, breast milk and vaginal fluids if one person is positive and the other is negative) that cannot be enjoyed with a little planning.

The other thing you need to tell your roommate is that she just needs to ask to find out what those things are. Not EVERY incidence of sexual interaction between a negative and positive person results in a transmission, in fact, most don't. A person who is positive isn't "infectious" at high levels throughout their living with the disease, but rather right when they are first infected themselves and also at the end stages. Faithfully sticking to the treatment and being regulary checked for other stds is another thing that may reduce their ability to transmit.

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#73

The cunundrum on oral sex

After reading this thread something really bothers me about my generation. I live in red America where so many young gay men feel oppressed and want to move to someplace where they will be more accepted. (Maybe my experience is not the norm though.) I know of many guys my age who have had very unsafe sexual activities and it scares the crap out of me. I could be wrong, but the rush of getting away from the oppression to the freedom to do whatever you want would be intoxicating. The powerful, unstoppable feeling that so many young gay men (as Namo mentioned) get from moving to a more accepting community makes them more likely to be willing to take risks (including Meth which is a HUGE part of the problem). I have to say coming from red America our education systems do not spend much time on HIV and AIDS as there needs to be. I was thinking about it and there is actually very little about taking measures to protect yourself other than "always use a condom" which are in of themselves fallible. Our generation grew up AFTER the drug cocktails came out. I don't think it is something people my age worry about enough. Education on AIDS is a life-long process I think. So many people seem to think they know everything they have to know when they really do not know much at all. Please correct me if I am off base. I have led a fairly sheltered life until the past few years, but at the same time I don't want to have to attend any unneccesary funerals.

(I should say my generation gay, straight, or bi does not take AIDS as seriously as it should. Ignorance seems to be bliss with many people I know and it scares me. I limited my post to just gay men my age because that's what the discussion is about.)
My avatar is a reminder to myself. I need lots of reminders...

Updated On: 2/16/05 at 01:26 AM

#74

The cunundrum on oral sex

First of all, this situation never has happened. We was talking about in my sociology of human sexuality class and although we didn't give our opionions, it is true that there is "No Safe Sex" I am sorry if you believe the contrary but there has been far too many texbooks and far too many 'mishaps' and far too many other proven facts to show that there is "No Safe Sex." If you want to teach 'safe sex' that is a whole other story. Teaching safe sex is teaching the value of using the right precautions. Just because the precautions are taken, doesn't not mean that there is still no risk. If there is any kind of 'sex', there is no possibly way to say that it is purely safe. Nothing is definite, and I repeat NOTING! You could walk outside and get hit by a car right now. Is it likely? No. Is it possible? Yes. Such as: Is sex safe? Generally, if you make the right decisions then yes, usually it is. Is the only way to definitley prevent getting STD's, AIDS or HIV not having sex? Yes! That is the bottom line.

As for my roomate, I just asked her opionion about it after I got home from that class.

But as far as cancer goes, I have no clue where you came up with that because cancer is totally different than HIV and AIDS. You cannot 'catch' cancer.

Now, G-d forbid if I happen to be the one with AIDS or HIV, I would specifically not have sex nor let anybody have sex with me. If they feel that they love me and want to have sex with me because 'love means that you would die for me' I still wouldn't let it happen. I am not going take the chances of giving someone else what I have. I just won't do it- it's wrong. I don't care how 'horny' I am- I care for the life and success of others and I will not do anything to put that in jeopardy.

Just as a note DGrant. I am 20 years old- I have not had sex yet in my life and I am quite happy with my decision.
Thats all I am saying about that. I won't talk about boyfriends, I won't talk about anything else about my personal life but, if you set your standards high and have morals and values that you cherish; it is very very possible to wait.

I'm not asying it's right for everyone but it seemed like you thought it was impossible. It's not The cunundrum on oral sex
People like you are the reason I'm on medication.
#75

The cunundrum on oral sex

"But as far as cancer goes, I have no clue where you came up with that because cancer is totally different than HIV and AIDS. You cannot 'catch' cancer."

I was coming at it from a very different perspective - the emotional one - how would you deal with loving someone who is dying? If you want to deal in the selfish consideration of things like 'should I expose myself to getting sick', then have at it.

And yes, of COURSE it's possible to remain celebate if that's your choice! But to act like that's not unusual over the course of a 3 to 4 year relationship is myopic at best - and completely unrealistic at worst. Enjoy your choice, but be very careful of holding other people to standards that you alone set - but obviously feel are superior and inviable.

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