A theory on the supposed robbery of Raul- Page 5

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 6/14/07 at 10:10am

And nobody's saying you aren't entitled to that. But, just because you don't see something doesn't mean it isn't there. It simply means that you don't see it -- simplest matters of taste -- so likewise, it's unfair to try to prove the people who do see it in him "wrong." Maybe you aren't posting with the intention of doing so, but sometimes it sure feels that way.

I'll risk that this may mean absolutely nothing coming from me, but people aren't so passionate about his work because they think he's attractive.

Updated On: 6/14/07 at 10:10 AM

[Smaxie]

Posted: 6/14/07 at 10:12am

Can we get back to this from Page 1, which disturbed me more than anything else in this thread?

>No, DHP won because the Tony commitee couldn't see CURTAINS walk home Tony-less. It was their consolation prize.<

If it was the case that the Tony voters felt a collective responsibility to award a show a "consolation prize" so it doesn't go home Tony-less... why wouldn't they have chosen to give Curtains an award like Best Book or Best Choreography, and given Raul the Tony if they truly felt strongly about his performance? For that matter, Legally Blonde went home Tony-less. Why didn't the voters give a consolation Tony to Jerry Mitchell for Best Choreography? Or Jonathan Tunick, say, for LoveMusik? Or the traditional August Wilson supporting actor Tony for Radio Golf?

[Craww]

Posted: 6/14/07 at 10:15am

This has become one of those pointless discussions where people are trying to prove why their opinion is objectively correct, and it won't ever work.

I can dissect the facts of Raul's technique to understand that criticism, but that's not going to change that my visceral reaction to the performance was totally tuned into the performance and not the technique.

[Rathnait62]

Posted: 6/14/07 at 10:16am

Thank you, Smaxie. You articulated what I was too annoyed to do clearly when I first saw that post.

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 6/14/07 at 10:16am

When that theory was posed in pre-Tony speculation, I had the same problem, Smaxie. People said the voters would want to reward Ebb, or the show itself, and I kept saying, "well, then why not honor the MATERIAL?" Who knows how they actually thought, though?

But, it is what it is.

I can dissect the facts of Raul's technique to understand that criticism, but that's not going to change that my visceral reaction to the performance was totally tuned into the performance and not the technique.

Well said. I agree.

[Born To Reign]

Posted: 6/14/07 at 10:19am

I think what craww is saying is that we have to agree to disagree. And I agree.

[WOSQ]

Posted: 6/14/07 at 10:26am

It always comes down to sex and/or money.

The producers of Curtains paid out more in bribes.

David Hyde Pierce slept with more voters than Raul Esparza did, and David did it better plus David said, "Thank you".

Jeez.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 6/14/07 at 10:39am

"David Hyde Pierce slept with more voters than Raul Esparza did."

Oh, I doubt that. Raul is much younger. AND Latino!

"You articulated what I was too annoyed to do clearly when I first saw that post."

Wow, you must be annoyed every time you sit down at your computer's keyboard.

[BroadwayGirl107]

Posted: 6/14/07 at 10:41am

I don't know if this has been SAID in this thread yet, but Mr. Esparza hasn't even had voice lessons (at least for singing); it's all raw vocal talent. So picking apart his technique, from my perspective, is pretty bizarre when you consider that he's probably learned whatever his technique from his own trial and error, and it seems pretty obvious to me that his vocal placement, etc, is not in the same place as classically trained vocalists place their voices. The fact that people like Audra McDonald are coming up in comparison seems ridiculous to me, because they are such wildly different performers and vocalists.

That being said, I still don't see him having difficultly with the song. I see him not pretending like he's strolling in the park, and if he is having difficulty (I'm sure..it's a tough song), I see him channeling that into a release of what the character's feeling, but I'm still missing what this whole thing is about. Faces he makes?
Updated On: 6/14/07 at 10:41 AM

[Born To Reign]

Posted: 6/14/07 at 10:43am

BroadwayGirl, by bringing up Audra I was pointing out that she's a very well-trained, flawless vocalist, and yet her performance in 110 (and I'm sure many other shows) is also very emotional and raw, and you can sense a struggle there. That's all

[misschung]

Posted: 6/14/07 at 11:01am

I dont understand this argument thats oscillating between his vocal technique and his stage presence/performance. Obviously the two are complimentary in a theatrical performance, but are you saying that his vocals are actually distracting from what he's trying to achieve dramatically?

[Born To Reign]

Posted: 6/14/07 at 11:03am

I think that's what he's trying to argue. That the fact that it looks like he's struggling to hit the notes takes away from the performance. We supporters think it's PART of the performance (and that Raul's imperfect, untrained voice is part of what makes him so special, unique, and captivating)

[misschung]

Posted: 6/14/07 at 11:09am

Right. Well, as a supporter I would agree with that argument. Its the same reason that I love Adam Pascal's voice, even though others I know refer to him as the guy "whose voice should have blown out years ago." I think it adds to his characterizations. With Raul though, he doesn't do that in his other roles, in my opinion, so I would argue that he doesnt really need to do that, but rather its a conscious choice and effort.

But if that's you're opinion of Raul, you're entitled to it. I do think its unfortunate that his Tony performance couldn't reach more people, but I think there are a number of reasons for that which have already been discussed here at length.

Updated On: 6/14/07 at 11:09 AM

[Tom148502]

Posted: 6/14/07 at 11:10am

"It's one thing to say "I didn't enjoy the performance" but another to say his vocal technique is bad because he acts while singing."

It's not acting. The facial contortions obviously help him to find the right note and the right inflection. Fortunately, he's the only Broadway performer that I've ever seen that has to go through all this.

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 6/14/07 at 11:17am

That's quite possibly one of the silliest things I have ever read on this board. You don't have to like his voice. You're welcome to criticize his technique. But really, why would someone with that much trouble, who needs so much effort to find the right NOTE for God's sake ever land leads on Broadway? The man can sing. His style just isn't everyone's cup of tea. Why the need to make it way more complicated than it needs to be? This over-analysis in order to make a simple matter of taste seem like it has stronger backing than it does is absurd.

Updated On: 6/14/07 at 11:17 AM

[Craww]

Posted: 6/14/07 at 11:19am

It's not acting. The facial contortions obviously help him to find the right note and the right inflection.

Whether or not the acting is distracted by these contortions, he is still acting. I'll go ahead and add 'unequivocally' to my statement, as you're still trying to sell your opinion as objective truth.

[Tom148502]

Posted: 6/14/07 at 11:19am

"That the fact that it looks like he's struggling to hit the notes takes away from the performance"

He was struggling, if you think that word is kinder, with EVERY note the night I saw him. I guess it's time to blame the producers for hiring him, especially since he hasn't helped the ticket sales much

[BroadwayGirl107]

Posted: 6/14/07 at 11:26am

"It's not acting. The facial contortions obviously help him to find the right note and the right inflection."

That's a funny statement to me, just because on the surface level, the only way anyone would really know that is if someone asked him to sing the song with a dead face or something, lol. It's just an assumption.

That being said, when somebody is struggling to hit notes, from my experience of watching such things, it's not the faces they make that give it away, but that their inner life and connection to whatever they were saying through the song goes away. Whatever life was happening behind their eyes disappears because they're thinking about notes, not the message. It's not necessarily something you see, but something you sense. I never see Esparza lose his connection with his character and what he's saying.

[Craww]

Posted: 6/14/07 at 11:36am

In fact, some of the most technically proficient singers I have seen are the first to lose character through their technique. Sometimes the focus to make it effortless completely renders them pleasant and dead eyed.

[Born To Reign]

Posted: 6/14/07 at 11:40am

two above posts:

BINGO!

[doodlenyc]

Posted: 6/14/07 at 11:42am

Cecelia Bartoli

[Rathnait62]

Posted: 6/14/07 at 11:44am

Correct, Doodle, and that's why I can only listen to her on audio recordings. Can't stand to watch her. If she was ever cast in a Broadway show, I would not be purchasing a ticket.

Updated On: 6/14/07 at 11:44 AM

[Born To Reign]

Posted: 6/14/07 at 11:53am

And isn't that what's grand about America? Freedom of choice!

[Rathnait62]

Posted: 6/14/07 at 11:54am

However, she has a beautiful, trained voice. I could listen to her sing all day. Her emotions do come across in the music.

[luvtheEmcee]

Posted: 6/14/07 at 11:59am

You're all making me tired.