Bored by Webber shows- Page 2

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 6/24/06 at 12:45pm

Andrew Lloyd Webber needs to work with a strong book writer and lyricist. He should also NOT build shows around spectacular scenic effects: That is the frosting for the big professional stagings. If the show is well written it can be equally effective with a minimalist staging. The three show written with Tim Rice (JOSEPH, SUPERTAR & EVITA) are all fine, with EVITA the best of the three, and these shows play well both in elaborate or simple productions.

Apparently being part of a successful team was not what Andrew Lloyd Webber wanted. Instead of Webber & Rice (or other lyricists/book writer), he wanted the shows announced as "Andrew Lloyd Webber's ________________ .

CATS was a stunt. It worked for some (many) because of the effects and the dancing. Also without a plot the show cut across cultural boundaries. It was the first show since OH! CALCUTTA to attract the Japanese businessmen. It ran 18 years made tons n money in New York, a similar long run in London, and a healthy road tour.

SONG AND DANCE was a stunt as well. An interesting experiment. It didn't quite work but Richard Maltby's reworked Broadway version at least gave some character to Emma. Try as they might no one could successfully connect the two segments, but they really do not need connection. I suspect the show would work better if the two halves were reversed. The London production was a success, but the Broadway production was an expensive failure.

STARLIGHT EXPRESS was another stunt show but one that was totally bankrupt both artistically and musically. This was the one that made me start hating ALW. Still a lot of people in London loved it where it ran on and on despite critical carping. On Broadway it lasted two years but closed with a multi-million dollar loss.

PHANTOM OF THE OPERA was better but the sloppy story telling and the dull, repetitive lyrics push me away rather than drawing me in to the story. Still, many have responded to the show's lush operetta romance and it has bee hugely successful on Broadway, In London, and here in Toronto and everywhere else it plays. This makes me worry about the general "dumbing down" of Broadway. A mediocre show like this can become the longest running show in Broadway history, while many other far superior shows have trouble lasting a year or more. But that is a problem with audiences, not the shows themselves.

ASPECTS OF LOVE contains several beautiful melodies, but some of the lyrics are bland and the story is very dull. I give him marks for writing a romantic opera about the mysteries of love, but the result falls far short of the goal.

SUNSET BLVD was sloppy! Sloppy! SLOPPY! In a rush to get the show on to save his failing Really Useful Group, Webber took a bunch of older songs - some from failed shows, some unused - and asked the lyric writers to fit new words to these melodies. The lyrics and text do not explore character and the depth of emotion from the original screenplay. Instead we get a re-telling of the film but without any subtext. People who have never seen the film get swept up in the story, but this one falls far short of what it could have been. It lost millions in London, in New York, in Toronto and on Tour. Now, some people are clamouring for a film version making me wonder how much money can one show lose?

WHISTLE DOWN THE WIND and BEAUTIFUL GAME were not successful in London and did not come to North America. WOMAN IN WHITE did and was a dismal failure here as it was in London. All three scores have their moments but again the lyrics/text let all three down.

People...DEMAND more from Broadway. You are paying $100 a ticket and you deserve shows much better than these.

[muscle23ftl]

Posted: 6/24/06 at 12:46pm

I didn't say he is the most influential man in musical theatre i said "He deserves to be one of the most or maybe, the most influential man in the musical theatre industry".
And yes, he's had more than 2 hit shows.

[OOTI2004]

Posted: 6/24/06 at 1:00pm

I love Phantom of the Opera. I agree that it has to be performed well and that there are some boring parts in the show, but I feel the show is very powerful. I agree with frontrowcentre that Sunset BLVD was sloppy, but I definately would not consider it boring. Also, I know I have heard horrible things about Cats, but it still appeal to me. I know most of Webber's shows are just spectacle, but you have to admit he has brought a lot of people to Broadway and some keep coming. I know of many people who never had a desire to see a Broadway show, but heard about Phantom of the Opera, saw it and now see many shows. Even my father saw Phantom of the Opera, surprising to begin with, and now wants to see more shows. However, I'm sure Phantom being the enrtyway to Broadway for some people can be bad, as they might go on expecting falling chandeliers in every show. Anyway, I started to ramble, but I don't agree that his shows are all boring.

[spiderdj82]

Posted: 6/24/06 at 1:09pm

Hal Prince is truly why his shows have been successful

And that is why people all over the world who have never been to Broadway or the West End loves his musicals. Give me a break!
Again, when people talk about Webber they completely bash him. In the "Boring Sondheim Shows" thread, people who said that they thought Sondheim musicals were boring, praised Sondheim to a degree. Whenever we talk about Webber everyone backhand compliments him or completely bashes him.

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 6/24/06 at 1:52pm

I hate to light a fire next to a powder keg, but maybe it is because Sondheim's shows are deserving of praise.

Should we praise the man who climbs the mountain, or the man who walks around it?

No, don't explode.

Sondheim has traditionally tried to explore much more subtext in his lyrics and this has I think inspired both the choice of subject matter and the form the shows take.

I think a show like PASSION was very daring for Broadway. A chamber opera with a leading lady nearly impossible to like or even fully comprehend. Not everyone liked it, but it keeps coming back in revivals by regional theatres and small opera companies and it does seem to resonate with some audiences. PASSION was adapted from a film but the show has a very different feel to it, a totally different text in some places and an ending that is more in keeping with the tone of the novel. (The movie inserted a joke ending involving a dwarf complaining that the story is unbelievable.)

SUNSET BLVD was also based on a film. A classic. One with a powerful story and vivid characters. Instead of building on those strengths we get a watered down version of the story with the dialogue set to rather dull and tuneless recitative and then when a key moment arrives (as in With One Look) we get a big aria that simply restates what the dialogue has just covered. That's NOT good musical theatre writing. The songs should take us deeper into the character and story.

SUNSET BLVD should have made for a fantastic stage musical - perhaps even updating it to comment on how movie musicals fell out of vogue, then casting former screen musical stars as Norma (Debbie Reynolds, Kathryn Grayson, Jane Powell.) There was so much potential there and Webber and company blew it. Good source material wasted.

I don't EVER want to see a show as bad as SUNSET BLVD on Broadway again.

Ironic twist: At one time in the early 80s it was announced that Hal Prince would direct Angela Lansbury in a musical version of SUNSET with a score by...you guessed it...Sondheim. When nothing came of it I later wrote to Sondheim asking about it. His reply: "Sunset Boulevard never really existed. It grew out of a desire on the part of Angela Lansbury, Hal Prince and Hugh Wheeler to do it and, on my refusal, Miss Lansbury's press agent wishing it into existence."

[RentBoy86]

Posted: 6/24/06 at 2:18pm

frontrowcentre2, I remember reading somewhere that Sondheim didn't want to do it because Hal Prince said it would work best as a sung-through opera and Sondheim didn't want to take on that task. (Which is odd because I'd consider Sweeney a sung-through show).

But I really like Sunset. I know the tunes are used over and over again, but I really like the little tune that they use. I'd love to see a production of it. I think it's a great score for a great show and the movie is beautiful. I think it could work in a stripped back version.

[muscle23ftl]

Posted: 6/24/06 at 2:24pm

I saw Sunset Blvd. on Bway and i hated it, once i bought the CD with Glenn Close/Alan Campbell/Judy Kuhn, i started liking it.

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 6/24/06 at 2:44pm

Actually it was Billy Wilder who told Sondheim that he needed to think of SUNSET as an opera rather than a musical. And Sondheim did not want to write an opera.

I have no problem with repeated melodies or even the recycled ones, but the score sounds inconsistent. "Let's have Lunch" and "Sunset Blvd" sound too contemporary for the time period. The one piece of music that (to me) captured the proper film noir style was the bars heard in the opening music and later sung by Max as The Greatest Star of all. I wish the rest of the score had been at that level. In short, the show did not work for me as a musical.

muscle23ftl, my experience was the opposite. I got the London cast album when it came out and sat down to listen to it. The more I listened, the less I liked it. But I decided to wait and see the show when it opened here. It was a mess. And Diahann Carroll gave the worst performance I have ever seen on a professional stage. I think she knew she was wrong for it and gave up trying. I am assured by friends who saw her that Glen Close was mesmerizing in the New York production but I was too disheartened to request comps to see her.

[musical_devotee]

Posted: 6/24/06 at 2:56pm

Well, I enjoy his shows very much, though some more than other. Some of them (like The Woman in White or Starlight Express) i didn't like much, the others need a couple of listening (Whistle down the wind).

The Phantom, Evita, Superstar, Cats, Song and Dance Sunset Blvd are terrific, in my view.

ALW writes great music, while Sondheim is a much better lyricist than composer, I think. ALW had some good and some average lyricists.

As Hal Prince put it:

"There is a whole snob attitude towards Andrew because he is so successful but this is a darn good composer and score".

He was referring to the Phantom score.

[RentBoy86]

Posted: 6/24/06 at 2:58pm

I want to get the London recording to hear Lupone's take on the role.

You think those songs don't fit the time period? "Let's Have Lunch" to me seems really jazzy and fits the time period very well. "Sunset Blvd" seems contemporary but not that contemporary. I think it is sort of like Lippa's "Wild Party" - it fits the time period of the show, but with some modern flares to it.

I think the parts that sound the most like the style of the film (I haven't seen the film in over a year) are the car chase scene and the end scene when Betty is driving over to Sunset.

[musical_devotee]

Posted: 6/24/06 at 3:44pm

I too prefer the London cast recording of Sunset Blvd with Patti. Glenn Close didn't do for me at all.

I think that the Sunset score found the Hollywood mood of those days very well.

[Piazzaslight]

Posted: 6/24/06 at 4:33pm

I'm a big fan of Webber's work. PHANTOM was the show that got me into theatre. While I dodn't think it;s as grat now as it was then, it still has some life in it for a few more years on Broadway at the least.

I think his later shows are the best. Beautiful Game and THe Woman in White have a lot of great melodies, while the lyrics on the other hand, aren't up to par. I don't think that people should bash Webber because of his lyrics. He didn't write them. Other lyricists did. I agree that some of them are cheesy, though.

Although I don't like ALL of his work, (Starlight, JCS, Cats and Whistle from what I've heard only have one song that I like) he has a lot of potential for another hit show if he only hired the right composer. I would love it if Sondheim and Webber got together to compose a musical. Sondheim on the lyrics, and Webber on the music. And I wish that Webber didn't put over-melodramatic breaks in music in his shows. I know all of you won't agree. Just some thoughts.

About Sondheim, as much as I like Webber's music, Sondheim's lyrics always reach out to me more. Plus, SitP alone makes my appreciation for him grow stronger. He just makes me think more. Webber is a very good diversion. His only work that truly reaches out to me, however, is ASPECTS OF LOVE, and a few other songs he wrote in other shows. Sondheim, like I said, just reaches out to me more. I could go on and on about this, but I won't.

Whew, sorry for the long post.

Updated On: 6/24/06 at 04:33 PM

[CurtisTaylorJr2]

Posted: 6/24/06 at 4:42pm

Some of his shows don't have dialouge and that makes it boring. A lot of times, a show completely sung through is not for everyone and I'm one of those people.

[LostLeander]

Posted: 6/24/06 at 5:39pm

I like older Webber. I really like Evita, JCS and Song and Dance. But his other shows all have that same overblown, "I'm going to wow you with my great, huge, operatic-ish, lush, melodic song." He's gotten lazy, and a little, dare I say, money hungry. Trying to recreate Cats/Phantom...

Sondheim at his worst still is better than Webber at his best though.

[StageGuy99]

Posted: 6/24/06 at 5:58pm

ALW is a part of musical theatre and there is no way that someone with out talent or that is horrid as many have been claiming could get as far and put out as many shows as he has.

Are many of his shows over blown and rely alot on spectacle? Yes! But that's fine! I am sure because of him many people attended a Broadway, West End, or Touring show that wouldn't consider themselves "Theatre People". How many people out there do you think's first broadway show they saw was an ALW? I would guess probably a lot.

Everyone doesn't have to like him, but please admit that the man is talented. You may not like his work, but many others do. And he has tried to switch it up some, like I pointed out earlier in the thread, as well as a couple others, Beautiful Game is an amazing example of an ALW piece that isn't overblown and VERY different from Phantom, Cats, Starlight big British Musical shows. If you haven't heard it I HIGHLY reccomend taking a listen with an open mind, you might be surprised!

[Roninjoey]

Posted: 6/24/06 at 6:34pm

I think ALW gets a lot of flack because, let's face it, he isn't a genius. I'm sorry. He's not a genius, stop throwing the word around so lightly.

But that's the thing. He's not a genius but he's hugely successful, because he writes popular entertainment, and he's very good at that. I could care less about how he attracts audiences that may not necessarily have gone to see a musical otherwise. These are people who don't get musicals. Of course they'll like bombastic schlock like The Phantom of the Opera. They don't get that either. They think they're seeing something that's high art, and they go home feeling good about themselves for having enriched their lives.

You can like something and still think it's kind of stupid. It probably is stupid.

There is no denying that Andrew Lloyd Webber CAN compose. I wouldn't say he's written the greatest melodies of all time (and if you believe that, you need to do more research, especially when so many of his melodies are so suspiciously similiar to ones written by other people). I also give him props for picking strange subject matter.

He's just not a particularly good dramatist. I think many of his shows are dreadfully boring. When he was working with Tim Rice he wrote better shows, in my opinion. And no, he isn't particularly influential. I mean, influential in what way? What has Andrew Lloyd Webber done for music?

[west end artist1]

Posted: 6/24/06 at 6:40pm

for the person who asked about B Game

its not about soccer as such its about the troubles in northern ireland and soccer been the bridge between to the 2 sides who are at war with each other(prots and catholics)its really very good.

[Weez]

Posted: 6/24/06 at 6:46pm

I really like 'Sunset Boulevard'. I have both the Glenn Close recording and the Patti LuPone recording. Patti sings the role better, whereas Glenn does unhinged better. Generally speaking, I prefer the rest of the cast of the Glenn Close recording so I listen to that one more.

I also really like 'Jesus Christ Superstar' and 'Evita' for being good works, and 'Joseph And The Amazing Technicolour Dreamcoat' for being tremendously good fun (although you do need a good exuberant cast so it doesn't fall embarrassingly flat).

'Cats', 'Starlight Express' and 'Phantom Of The Opera' can bite me. ^_^ The rest I'm fairly ambivalent towards.

Updated On: 6/24/06 at 06:46 PM

[musical_devotee]

Posted: 6/24/06 at 7:10pm

In the end, it's all a matter of taste.

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 6/25/06 at 2:13pm

Everyone doesn't have to like him, but please admit that the man is talented.

He is VERY talented and has a wonderful gift for melody. Maybe he should write for the concert hall. But for someone who points to SOUTH PACIFIC as his source of inspiration he has missed what makes SOUTH PACIFIC such a good show. It was written by Rodgers AND HAMMERSTEIN (AND LOGAN) - and their collaborative effort yielded a rich musical play that is both entertaining and moving and contains a wealth of beautiful music.

I have total respect for the man as a composer. But as a producer he should demand more from his collaborators and (my opinion here) he doesn't because he wants to be the STAR of his shows. His ego prevents him from ensuring that his showas are as good as theu could be.

That's my problem with his shows in genral: they fall far short of their goals.

[muscle23ftl]

Posted: 6/25/06 at 2:21pm

frontrow, you just hate ALW!

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 6/25/06 at 2:25pm

No I don't hate ALW. In 0fact EVITA is one of my favourite shows (and one I have seen over a dozen times) ...but as I said I really wish his other shows had texts that were worthy of his compositional gifts. The fact that he also produces these shows tells me that either he doesn't know what a good text is (bad) or doesn't want the text to outshine the music (far worse.)

[wonderfulwizard11]

Posted: 6/25/06 at 3:18pm

I hacven't seen of heard many of his shows, but Phantom rather bores me. I just don't really enjoy it.

However, I love Cats. I love the music he has for the show, and Elliot's poems have this really whimisical wordplay quality that I love.

[jv92]

Posted: 6/25/06 at 8:53pm

Phantom's a piece of ****. End of story.

Andrew Lloyd Webbet is probably the man who deserves no success. His Evita was excellent, but after that, his work is awful.

[Dollypop]

Posted: 6/25/06 at 8:57pm

How can anyone enjoy the score to POTO? The music is arrantly stolen from Puccini's La FANCIULLA DEL WEST. By right, Puccini should be getting credit for writing the melodies.