CFA now the favorite for Tony?- Page 6

[JudyDenmark]

Posted: 6/6/17 at 1:34pm

PaulWom said: "I honestly think that those who don't get Malloy's book/score need their content force-fed to them, instead of making an effort to follow a story or try a new form of music."

There have been a lot of patronizing things said on these boards, but this might take the cake. And per your previous post, there are plenty of people who don't post here who hated this score... namely the majority of my friends who have seen it and thought it was pretentious hipster BS. I've studied music for about 30 years... I assure you I understand the purpose of recitative. So not enjoying it doesn't mean I don't "understand" the Great Comet score. I still think it's a lot of noise, not helped by a cast who is often singing with unpleasant affectations. There are of course exceptions, and parts of it that I find really beautiful. 

Do you think people who don't enjoy heavy metal (or country, or opera, or rap) need the content force-fed to them so that they can "try a new form of music?" The entire point of music is that it's subjective. I don't really care how intelligent this score is on paper, much as I appreciate thoughtful writing - in practice I find it impossible to listen to, and that's ultimately what matters to me if I'm picking a "Best Score." Obviously YMMV, which is great. We're all allowed to like what we like. Doesn't mean that people who disagree with you are ignorant. 

[PaulWom]

Posted: 6/6/17 at 1:37pm

I don't mean to imply that you cannot enjoy Comet. I just think anyone who thinks that Malloy writes lyrics or notes the way he does because he's a "hipster", as you've suggested, is just ridiculous. And frankly, most of those people I've talked to who feel that way are angry that it doesn't sound like a "regular Broadway score."

[PaulWom]

Posted: 6/6/17 at 1:49pm

My apologies if I made it seem like you have to enjoy Comet's score. That, of course, is subjective. But the people in the lobby of GC who I've heard call it "hipster BS" or a similar phrase have also said in the same breath, "why are the black girl and the white boy siblings?",  "Why doesn't it all sound the same?" , and "why doesn't it rhyme"? So I'm sorry if I'm generalizing, but they don't seem like the most open-minded people. 

I don't understand how one doesn't even acknowledge the craft that went into this score. Sorry if Malloy didn't make it "catchy" enough for you. 

[PaulWom]

Posted: 6/6/17 at 1:50pm

And (again) this is not everyone! And people do not have to like it! But this attitude that Malloy just threw a bunch of stuff at a wall and said "Musical!" Is frankly insulting 

[JudyDenmark]

Posted: 6/6/17 at 2:44pm

PaulWom said: "I don't understand how one doesn't even acknowledge the craft that went into this score. Sorry if Malloy didn't make it "catchy" enough for you."

I acknowledge the craft, and am saying it doesn't matter to me how intellectual something is if I find the result unpleasing.

Short anecdote: I do vocal arranging as a hobby, and was writing an a cappella arrangement a few years ago of the song "Secrets" by OneRepublic. The theme of that song is essentially the writer wink-wink saying that his producers and the powers-that-be needed him to put some juicy life drama into a song, because that's what sells records. "Tell me what you want to hear." So I tried to get all smart about it, and put bells and whistles in the arrangement to play into this theme. I.e. As an arranger, superficially giving the audience what they like in a cappella music - a key change, belted descants etc. When my mentor asked me about one of these elements, and I proudly explained my thinking, he said, "it doesn't matter. Unless it comes with a written explanation, no one is going to get that." And he was totally right - the audience didn't care how analytical I was being with the lyrics, they just want to hear a great song. 

This is obviously not the same situation as Great Comet, but it makes me feel similarly. Like (and I don't know the show cold, so forgive me if I'm mixing up a song or a music theory assessment - I don't have the score), when Natasha and Mary meet, they sing a distinct minor second which I'm sure is meant to be a metaphor for their initial distaste of each other. On paper, I totally get it and think it's smart. In reality, I find it unpleasant to listen to. (This is maybe a bad example because I don't actually mind that particular dissonance, but it illustrates my point.) 'The Private and Intimate Life of the House" musically reflects the stormy living situation of Mary and her father, but that song is one of the true nails-on-a-chalkboard songs to me - the metaphor is irrelevant to me when I can't listen without wincing. In short, I think a tourist should be able to come see a show and enjoy it upon one viewing, not have to read extensive notes from the author just to get his point, though author analysis is obviously great icing on the cake for those who want to dig deeper.

The hipster comments from my friends were mainly directed at Brittain Ashford and her affected singing voice, as well as the anachronistic "look how impossibly cool we are in our neon and leather" treatment of the ball. This show is undeniably hipster in a lot of ways. That's not really a bad thing at all, it's just not my personal cup of tea. 

Finally, and I can't actually believe I need to say this, but there's nothing wrong with enjoying melodic music. When I think about the scores that have most positively affected me over the years, it's usually a melody (and probably the vocal arranging, let's be real) that makes me truly fall in love with a piece of music. 

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 6/6/17 at 3:30pm

The same things can be said about a score like Dear Evan Hansen, that the music is geared towards a certain age group and the way they sing is meant to emulate something or sound cool. There are also people who think the music is too catchy, that it relies on tuneful hooks and repeated choruses instead of an interesting melody that comes from the emotion of the situation. I'm not making the argument, I'm just playing devil's advocate.

For what it's worth, my younger siblings, who are probably the target demographic for Dear Evan Hansen and The Great Comet, saw both shows and enjoyed both. They knew nothing about either walking in except for knowing the lead actor in each. I personally "got" both shows and scores watching the shows. Between the two, I find myself listening to The Great Comet more (especially the Broadway recording) because there's more to find and discover with each new listen. If I want to jam out to some showtunes, I'll put on the Dear Evan Hansen cast recording. Or Groundhog Day, which I thoroughly enjoyed as well.

[JudyDenmark]

Posted: 6/6/17 at 4:07pm

HeyMrMusic, I couldn't agree more. The point is that we all have different tastes and are welcome to enjoy whatever we enjoy! And everyone's going to enjoy things for different reasons. I just can't help but defend myself if someone is essentially saying that I must not be liking something because I'm not smart enough to understand it. It's just a matter of personal taste. (And I loved the GHD score as well. Wouldn't that be a Tony shocker that would shut us all up, haha!)

[dianamorales]

Posted: 6/6/17 at 5:39pm

Putting personal opinions aside (as hard is that is), I think Great Comet will take score, CFA will get book, and Dear Evan Hansen will get musical and director. However, I still think theres a chance that Great Comet and Dear Evan Hansen could split the vote and give Come From Away the majority.

[binau]

Posted: 6/6/17 at 6:18pm

cam5y said: "Did you mean for that post to be quite as insulting as you made it? People in small town Newfoundland aren't stupid. To take but one example, Zita Cobb came from Fogo Island, left, made a fortune in Silicon Valley and then came back to Newfoundland to use that money to set up a luxury hotel to benefit her community. Even in the show, the mayor acknowledges that the reason so many planes are coming their way is because fewer people will die if there are any terrorists on them. These are not stupid people. Of course the characters are exaggerated, because that's how musicals work. I wish the Newfoundland characters could have had a bit more depth to them (the outsiders are the only ones with any character development) but they're not portrayed as stupid. Sorry that the "sappy jobs" of teaching, animal feeding, librarian, police officer, air traffic control and mayor aren't cool enough for you. Not much web development going on there in 2001.

You want a song about how the Muslim character is conflicted, and how that would be deeply meaningful? Let me tell you, I come from small town Newfoundland and I could never live there any more, but not because the people are stupid. I now live and work in East London, and have many Muslim colleagues and friends. Why should a Muslim man who lives in Egypt apologise for or explain the actions of (predominantly) Saudis who believe in a perversion of that faith? Any more so than American Christians should apologise for the actions of the IRA (well, apart from the ones who funded it).

 

"

I'm not saying they are stupid in real life  but I feel their portrayal in CFA is that they are rather naive small-town folk  

And re: the jobs. My point is that they deliberately pick and choose jobs with positive sentiment to keep the sappyness high. I know it's obvious but where is the local prostitute, criminal, drug dealer, garbage man, construction worker etc. - they intentionally choose the good willed/high humanity jobs with positive sentiment because it adds to the general 'niceness' of the story I think. Which is fine. My only claim is that it just makes it seem very sentimental, probably a little unrealistically so. 

Re: Islam. Look of course we will never agree here but I'm not suggesting he apologise merely acknowledge the atrocities of the religion generally and call for peace. To say that the way Islam is practiced throughout the world today is a 'perversion' is rather inaccurate when the extremists are probably carrying out the actions as described in their holy texts more accurately/literally than the non-extremists. Not to mention the moderates who continue to perpetuate homophobia and anti-women agendas. The musical had an opportunity to really try and address this but took the easy and typical way out of seeepig it under the rug and pretending there is nothing wrong with the belief system. The hypocrisy of left-wing types is puzzling. The things that are happening in Egypt right now to innocent people because of that religion is horrific. Recently about 95% of people in Egypt (and this is an actual statistic, not made up) were found in a survey to think homosexuality shouldn't be accepted - and there are no rights or legal status for LGBT in Egypt. The flow on effects to things like HIV/AIDS management is horrific. And yet, the only thing this musical has to say about this issue is criticising 'Islamaphobia"? It's actually disgusting. As usual, no one cares about gay people. And in our political climate, if we stand up for gay people, for women, for science - we are criticised as 'bigoted' or 'racist'. We need to stop being so stupid and really change the social thought on this. CFA had an opportunity but took the easy way out. 

Updated On: 6/6/17 at 06:18 PM

[cam5y]

Posted: 6/6/17 at 8:32pm

qolbinau said: "I'm not saying they are stupid in real life  but I feel their portrayal in CFA is that they are rather naive small-town folk  

And re: the jobs. My point is that they deliberately pick and choose jobs with positive sentiment to keep the sappyness high. I know it's obvious but where is the local prostitute, criminal, drug dealer, garbage man, construction worker etc. - they intentionally choose the good willed/high humanity jobs with positive sentiment because it adds to the general 'niceness' of the story I think. Which is fine. My only claim is that it just makes it seem very sentimental, probably a little unrealistically so. 

Re: Islam. Look of course we will never agree here but I'm not suggesting he apologise merely acknowledge the atrocities of the religion generally and call for peace. To say that the way Islam is practiced throughout the world today is a 'perversion' is rather inaccurate when the extremists are probably carrying out the actions as described in their holy texts more accurately/literally than the non-extremists. Not to mention the moderates who continue to perpetuate homophobia and anti-women agendas. The musical had an opportunity to really try and address this but took the easy and typical way out of seeepig it under the rug and pretending there is nothing wrong with the belief system. The hypocrisy of left-wing types is puzzling. The things that are happening in Egypt right now to innocent people because of that religion is horrific. Recently about 95% of people in Egypt (and this is an actual statistic, not made up) were found in a survey to think homosexuality shouldn't be accepted - and there are no rights or legal status for LGBT in Egypt. The flow on effects to things like HIV/AIDS management is horrific. And yet, the only thing this musical has to say about this issue is criticising 'Islamaphobia"? It's actually disgusting. As usual, no one cares about gay people. And in our political climate, if we stand up for gay people, for women, for science - we are criticised as 'bigoted' or 'racist'. We need to stop being so stupid and really change the social thought on this. CFA had an opportunity but took the easy way out."

Naive is one thing. They live a simpler life than people in larger places, more focused on the (totally insane) weather and the outdoors. You don't have to approve of it or like it. Just don't call them "stupid," as you did in your earlier post. None of the characters exhibited it. Your jobs point is also odd - these are working people, doing unglamorous jobs. I fail to see how police officers' and school bus drivers' jobs are "sappy" or how garbage and construction workers' jobs are less so. As for the seedier side, it's difficult to be an escort or a criminal in such a small place where you will be rumbled quickly (and the local drug dealers wouldn't be eager to volunteer to help in such a situation). Escorts have tended to visit temporarily from Halifax or St John's (larger cities). 

Your other point is more disturbing. There are no "atrocities of [Islam] generally." There are over a billion Muslims in the world. They range from oppressed people in Saudi Arabia to modern, liberal people such as London's mayor Sadiq Khan. The Qu'ran contains some disturbing passages, as does the Bible. The vast, vast majority of religious practitioners of all faiths do so peaceably and peacefully, and there IS nothing wrong with the Islamic belief system per se. Some Muslims live under oppressive regimes, as do Christians and people of many other religions. Some Muslims live in a modern, liberal way in the West. Some live in between, such as the hundreds of millions of Muslims in Indonesia and Bangladesh. And you suggest that the Muslim character "call for peace." That is precisely what he is doing in the song, Prayer. 

Discrimination against LGBT people exists in Muslim and non-Muslim countries alike. Same-sex relationships are illegal in many predominantly non-Muslim countries, such as India, many African countries (Kenya, Uganda, Mauritius, Angola, Botswana, Zimbabwe), and Caribbean countries (Antigua & Barbuda, Barbados, Dominica, Grenada, Jamaica, Trinidad & Tobago). It is just as much a cultural as a religious matter. We should fight against such discrimination in all its forms and wherever it is. And it's not the responsibility of the show or any one Muslim individual to address such discrimination, when it was set in modern day Canada and that's not what the show was about. The gay couple in the show was treated with (somewhat exaggerated, admittedly) kindness. That's what happened to Kevin Tuerff and his then partner in real life and that's what the show portrayed.

[binau]

Posted: 6/6/17 at 8:47pm

A large proportion of those billion Muslims hold negative attitudes towards homosexuality and you know it. Look at statistics. There is some variation of course across the world and within regions. But it's almost a universal truth. The way you talk about it is as if there is no relationship between Islam and homophobia. Ridiculous. It's part of their belief system and religious texts (as it is Christians and the Bible).  CFA and so called 'progressives' will continue this myth that we can all live together peacefully while gay people are being socially excluded, beaten up and murdered. While Muslims are voting against our rights and the rights of the minorities who are victims of their belief system. You talk about 'culture'? This does not form spontaneously out of a vacuum. Where do you think the cultural values come from?  

 

"There are no atrocities of Islam" is one of the most untrue things I have ever read. I can't believe people really believe this. Look at a history book. Open a news paper. Talk to Muslims about their attitudes towards gay people and women (and not the unusually progressive ones who reject the dogma but the devout ones). Talk to gay Muslims who are the victims of their belief system. 

Stop denying the truth. This very post shows why CFA has handled this issue so weakly. Fans of the show won't even acknowledge that the show only exists because of Islam. 

Updated On: 6/6/17 at 08:47 PM

[Someone in a Tree2]

Posted: 6/6/17 at 8:52pm

If you reject the input of progressive Muslims and only poll the "devout" ones, you'll find just as reactionary a view of gay people from fundamentalist Christians and Orthodox Jews. Fundamentalism is fundamentalism, across all religious divides.

[binau]

Posted: 6/6/17 at 8:57pm

Someone in a Tree2 said: "If you reject the input of progressive Muslims and only poll the "devout" ones, you'll find just as reactionary a view of gay people from fundamentalist Christians and Orthodox Jews. Fundamentalism is fundamentalism, across all religious divides.

 

"

Yes. Exactly. What's your point? CFA is all gushy towards Islam, Judaism and Christianity. It's pretty sad that the Book of Mormon is the only musical brave enough to have real social commentary on this issue. Meanwhile at CFA we are fed bull**** ideas about how religions are good. 

[wonderfulwizard11]

Posted: 6/6/17 at 9:02pm

Must you ruin more threads with your insufferable opinions? We get it, you think Islam is a cancer, and if it were up to you the show would end with the one Muslim character personally apologizing to every person who lost someone on 9/11, but it's not relevant to the discussion at hand. 

Also, dummy, you undermind your own damn point by praising The Book of Mormon. As profane as it is, the point of that show is even if faith is silly or made it, it's not a bad thing if it helps people get through their lives and be good to other people. It's not an anti-faith show, a point which the creators have made clear numerous times. 

Updated On: 6/6/17 at 09:02 PM

[NYJoe]

Posted: 6/6/17 at 9:02pm

Re: Islam. Look of course we will never agree here but I'm not suggesting he apologise merely acknowledge the atrocities of the religion generally and call for peace. To say that the way Islam is practiced throughout the world today is a 'perversion' is rather inaccurate when the extremists are probably carrying out the actions as described in their holy texts more accurately/literally than the non-extremists. CFA had an opportunity but took the easy way out.

Nonsense.  First, you are singling out Muslims, even though you acknowledge that all religions have been virulently anti-gay.  Second, you're missing the point of the TRUE story.  You want accuracy, but then you want a sermon put into the characters' mouths?  CFA is intellectually honest.  Based on your argument, I do not believe that you are.

[ebontoyan]

Posted: 6/6/17 at 9:03pm

If that's their experience in CFA, then who are you to change their story just to fit some narrative you have??! What a stupid idea!

Updated On: 6/6/17 at 09:03 PM

[binau]

Posted: 6/6/17 at 9:07pm

I agree I need to stop derailing this thread. All I'll say is that if you care about gay people, the truth, women, science, the environment we need pieces like CFA to stop spreading a myth that there is nothing wrong with religious belief systems such as Islam, Christianity or Judaism. It's naive, stupid and simply not true. 9/11 was, in part, caused by religion (this is clearly described at the 9/11 memorial museum). Tolerance of right-wing conservative ideas is not the same thing as being progressive. It's hypocrisy, that's what it is. 

[ebontoyan]

Posted: 6/6/17 at 9:11pm

Goodbye Felicia!

[haterobics]

Posted: 6/6/17 at 9:14pm

qolbinau said: "I agree I need to stop derailing this thread."

It sounds like you have a disconnect between this text and your follow-up actions, which is strange since you don't seemingly believe in such a disconnect.

[EvanK]

Posted: 6/6/17 at 9:47pm

This conversation is ridiculous, but hey... I'll weigh in with my takeaway from the show.

We have always struggled with finding common ground among our differences, LGBT people have been oppressed, black people, muslim people, anyone and everyone who is seen as a minority or lesser then. However, I think something this show tries to outline that in moment of greater adversity and tragedy, people tend to disregard all that, even for just a few moments. They let that go, they don't ask what or who you are, they do not care. They help, and care for eachother. In the wake of tragedy I would argue the majority of humans truly do band together and help each other.

The thing is, that typically lasts a while and then seems to fade away... and maybe the show is trying to showcase this, in the hopes of creating a world where that is happening every single day, and not just in the wake of tragedy. 

[EvanK]

Posted: 6/6/17 at 9:47pm

This conversation is ridiculous, but hey... I'll weigh in with my takeaway from the show.

We have always struggled with finding common ground among our differences, LGBT people have been oppressed, black people, muslim people, anyone and everyone who is seen as a minority or lesser then. However, I think something this show tries to outline that in moment of greater adversity and tragedy, people tend to disregard all that, even for just a few moments. They let that go, they don't ask what or who you are, they do not care. They help, and care for eachother. In the wake of tragedy I would argue the majority of humans truly do band together and help each other.

The thing is, that typically lasts a while and then seems to fade away... and maybe the show is trying to showcase this, in the hopes of creating a world where that is happening every single day, and not just in the wake of tragedy. 

[binau]

Posted: 6/6/17 at 10:06pm

I think that's a really nice point and post. And yes I guess overall it is a nice message and maybe something to celebrate. 

[binau]

Posted: 6/6/17 at 10:11pm

haterobics said: "qolbinau said: "I agree I need to stop derailing this thread."

It sounds like you have a disconnect between this text and your follow-up actions, which is strange since you don't seemingly believe in such a disconnect.

 

"

I think it's partly because I have conflicting messages. Some seem to want to actually engage in a discussion and if so that's fine (I'm not going to just ignore an outrageous claim that there are no atrocities of Islam, which I find most offensive on behalf of Muslims who are oppressed by the religion worldwide, and whose family and friends are dying in terrorists attacks on a daily basis. Sheesh.). Or for example, responding to my claim re: Book of Mormon. Which yes while does have some positive things to say about religion certainly manages to ridicule it, including dangerous ideas they have about homosexuality, in a way that I think is constructive. 

I guess what I'll say is that if some people truly do not want this discussion to continue then the easiest thing to do is ignore me. If you reply or react to me - particularly with outrageous claims such as Islam does not cause atrocities worldwide or that the issues are to do with 'culture' rather than 'religion' (as if the two are orthogonal constructs) I will assume they want to contue the discussion. 

[cam5y]

Posted: 6/7/17 at 4:04am

qolbinau said: "I think it's partly because I have conflicting messages. Some seem to want to actually engage in a discussion and if so that's fine (I'm not going to just ignore an outrageous claim that there are no atrocities of Islam, which I find most offensive on behalf of Muslims who are oppressed by the religion worldwide, and whose family and friends are dying in terrorists attacks on a daily basis. Sheesh.). Or for example, responding to my claim re: Book of Mormon. Which yes while does have some positive things to say about religion certainly manages to ridicule it, including dangerous ideas they have about homosexuality, in a way that I think is constructive. 

I guess what I'll say is that if some people truly do not want this discussion to continue then the easiest thing to do is ignore me. If you reply or react to me - particularly with outrageous claims such as Islam does not cause atrocities worldwide or that the issues are to do with 'culture' rather than 'religion' (as if the two are orthogonal constructs) I will assume they want to contue the discussion. "

Stop misrepresenting what has been said. I said that Islam itself has not caused the atrocities to which you refer (which it hasn't, people have caused them, in part based on their interpretation of Islamic texts, which is no different to any other religion) and that it is not the responsibility for individual Muslims (or the show) to apologise or explain them. No more than it is the responsibility of liberal Christians and Jews to apologise or explain what has been done by Christian or Jewish fundamentalists. Do people use religion for evil? Yes, of course they do. It doesn't mean the religion itself is evil or that the vast majority of its practitioners are not good people trying to live decent lives, which is (again) the entire point of the show. 

And no one said that "the issues are due to 'culture' rather than 'religion." I said that it is just as much a cultural as a religious matter (which it is). The two are linked. 

[binau]

Posted: 6/7/17 at 6:34am

You sound like a republican "guns don't kill people. People kill people". If you can rest easy at night thinking the immoral and whacky ideas in the Bible and Quran - that are widely practiced, particularly in the case of the Quran - do not make these belief systems evil I envy you. Meanwhile, others will be picking up the pieces (sometimes literally) for the gay people, women, apostates and terror casualties who are victims. 

 

And yes culture and religion are linked. Islamic cultures in particular are very closely shaped by religious dogma. 

 

I am going to be so glad when we escape this intellectual winter we are in right now and liberals become consistent in their views and recognise the power and influence ideas - particularly bad ideas - have on other people. I can't believe in 2017 I have to defend the truth, gay rights, women's rights and the safety of people by criticising the belief systems that cause this. This opposition is what happens when the left become so confused they spin around and become right wing. We need progressive ideas, not middle-aged ideas. 

Updated On: 6/7/17 at 06:34 AM