Carousel opinions?- Page 2

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 10/4/17 at 4:05pm

I do not in any way think of If I Loved You as noble or inspiring song.  It's a remarkably articulate expression of inarticulateness.  The tragedy of their relationship is in that very first scene.  They will never be able to express their love in any complete, adult way.  Yes...the music is gorgeous, but that's what makes the tragedy of it all so difficult to bear.  Had the underscoring been You'll Never Walk Alone, yes...inspiring.  But If I Loved You is not that.  It underscores the tragedy, rather than give credence to the idea that hittin' feels real good.  

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 10/4/17 at 4:08pm

Rinaldi, I was trying to remember how the estimable Sally Murphy played that scene in Hytner's revival, but I can't.  Do you remember?

[Rinaldo]

Posted: 10/4/17 at 4:32pm

henrikegerman said: "Rinaldo, I was trying to remember how the estimable Sally Murphy played that scene in Hytner's revival, but I can't. Do you remember?"

Boy, I hesitate to trust my memory after all this time. That said, my recollection is that she played it along the lines some here have suggested: "Yes, it is.... [very long pause, then continuing in deadened tone] possible..." -- admitting that it was a sad, cold truth that she was reluctantly admitting.

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 10/4/17 at 4:40pm

Rinaldo said: "henrikegerman said: "Rinaldo, I was trying to remember how the estimable Sally Murphy played that scene in Hytner's revival, but I can't. Do you remember?"

Boy, I hesitate to trust my memory after all this time. That said, my recollection is thatshe played it along the lines some here have suggested: "Yes, it is.... [very long pause, then continuing in deadened tone]possible..." -- admitting that it was a sad, cold truth that she was reluctantly admitting."

Thanks.  I think you might be right.   At least my memory feels refreshed.  

 

[JBroadway]

Posted: 10/4/17 at 5:14pm

SonofRobbieJ said: "I do not in any way think of If I Loved You as noble or inspiring song. It's a remarkably articulate expression of inarticulateness. The tragedy of their relationship is in that very first scene. They will never be able to express their love in any complete, adult way. Yes...the music is gorgeous, but that's what makes the tragedy of it all so difficult to bear. Had the underscoring been You'll Never Walk Alone, yes...inspiring. But If I Loved You is not that. It underscores the tragedy, rather than give credence to the idea that hittin' feels real good."

 

I agree completely, and I think the lyrics of the reprise -- which comes immediately after the exchange we're discussing -- proves your point even further.

"longing to tell you, but afraid and shy, I let my golden chances pass me by. Now I've lost you. Soon I will go in the mist of day, and you never will know how I loved." 

^That is undoubtedly my favorite moment in the show. In my opinion it is one of the most heartbreaking moments in the history of musical theatre. 

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 10/4/17 at 5:39pm

I agree that there might not be anything LYRICALLY incongruous with "If I Loved You" remaining as underscoring for the scene as played the way we are envisioning it being played.  

But that's not how I read Rinaldo's point.   If I understood Rinaldo correctly, his (or her) concern was with the unabashed lushness of the orchestration of "If I Loved You" during that scene. 

Is a soaringly romantic orchestration incompatible with the kind of subtext we are considering?
Or might it prove heartbreakingly resonant with that proposed subtext?

I don't know.  I'd have to see a great many rehearsals to even offer a really good guess. 

addendum:  I just looked again at the scene from the movie, and I tend to think that the underscoring on the soundtrack (which may be quite different than that in the stage score) and the proposed approach to the scene aren't at all incongruous.

Updated On: 10/4/17 at 05:39 PM

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 10/4/17 at 7:48pm

I've never been a big fan of Carousel.  The score contains songs I really cannot stand and there are parts of the book that bother me.  One of my biggest issues is how the balance just seems so off, especially when compared to the source material, which was much grittier and desperate.  The first act divides the focus of the characters to the extent that Carrie gets more focus musically than Julie and the second act only introduces four new songs (the rest is the ballet and reprises).  If I watch the film of Carousel, I really just fast forward to the bits I like. 

That being said, I do think it contains their single greatest song, If I Loved You.  When directed well, as Robbie describes, it is almost overwhelming in its beauty and devastation.  The complexity of the song against the characters and scene, coupled with the emotional tension, almost gives me a full-on anxiety attack when I see it (something the film never achieves).  It also contains two of their most beautiful melodies in the Carousel Waltz and You'll Never Walk Alone.  But you still have to wade through stuff like June is Bustin Out All Over, layering the cheese on thick and heavy, or the dreaded Clambake number that stops everything cold so the characters can describe their dinner to us in detail (I can't think of a R&H song I hate more, actually).  The 1994 revival is the only production I've seen that sold me on the material as a whole and I fear we may never reach that height again.  The first act of the Chicago Lyric Opera production was nowhere close and it was a struggle for me to wait until intermission to leave.  Many hail Carousel as the R&H masterpiece of their canon (other critics say it's South Pacific).  I'd rank it around 4th or 5th.  Maybe tied with Sound of Music for 4th place.

[bear88]

Posted: 10/4/17 at 9:22pm

GeorgeandDot said: "I love ShirleyJones, but her performance is terrible in the film. Actually the film is just terrible.

If you want to see Carousel performed perfectly, watch the Lincoln Center concert with Kelli O'Hara, Nathan Gunn, and Jessie Mueller."

I am somehow relieved to see someone who likes the musical pan the film. My wife took me to see the last revival on tour in 1996, and I was kind of dreading it. Instead, I thought it was fantastic. Shoot, I still remember the unique staging more than three decades later.

Last year, I watched the film and it just seemed awful, which made me wonder if I overrated it because I was pleasantly surprised in the '90s. I did listen to the Broadway revival cast recording and assured myself that I wasn't way off. It seems like Carousel will always pose challenges, but they are not insurmountable. (And now you have me curious about the Lincoln Center concert.)

Updated On: 10/5/17 at 09:22 PM

[rattleNwoolypenguin]

Posted: 10/5/17 at 12:30am

Here are my thoughts on Carousel and the film. I'll start with the film:

I would say it's one of those screen adaptations of a musical where it's not all out horrible but kinda forgettable and at times dull. I think the darkness of the material clashes tonally with how it's shot. I feel like Shirley Jones didn't understand the character. Her and Gordon MacRae are electric together in Oklahoma, and you just don't feel it as effectively here. They're just playing too broadly. It's archetypes. "Soliloquy" and "You'll Never Walk Alone" are the highlights I think (Him belting out in front of the shore is particularly stunning). I agree that the Bench scene feels somewhat flat. I think a filmed remake that really took it out of the proscenium golden age musical feel and let it be more human and intimate could do very well. 

As for the musical itself, to say it "defends spousal abuse" is to not be able to see the moral complexity that is the piece. You're supposed to feel uncomfortable and gross, you're supposed to feel moved, you're supposed to feel devastated. Julie doesn't wake up and that is a reality. She passes along that reality to her daughter. She perpetuates a toxic idea.

In theme it is very in line with Sondheim. It's a thinker. It invites a discussion. You spend most of "Soliloquy" still being upset that he hit her, but you find yourself empathizing with his thought process. 

And Carousel Waltz is Richard Rodgers's masterpiece.

[Call_me_jorge]

Posted: 10/5/17 at 7:05am

Updated On: 10/5/17 at 07:05 AM

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 10/5/17 at 8:22am

rattleNwoolypenguin said: "As for the musical itself, to say it "defends spousal abuse" is to not be able to see the moral complexity that is the piece. You're supposed to feel uncomfortable and gross, you're supposed to feel moved, you're supposed to feel devastated. Julie doesn't wake up and that is a reality. She passes along that reality to her daughter. She perpetuates a toxic idea."

I agree that Julie doesn't wake up.  But, as traditionally played,  the show is deadset on consecrating Julie's codependency and making us feel in awe of her self-abnegation.  That's the way it tries to move us.   It in no sense asks us to realistically examine Julie's abused mentality.  And certainly did not intend to discomfit the mainstream of its original audience (other than by the boldness of musicalizing a popular modern drama with many tragic elements), let alone gross that audience out.   Nor, I daresay, did it envision that future generations would find Julie's self-effacement the least bit alarming. 

Carousel certainly asks us to sympathize and pity Julie.  But absent respectful and intelligent revision, textual or subtextual, it demands that we be unconditionally inspired rather than seriously distressed by Julie's self-effacement, that we unconditionally admire Julie's honest but myopically romantic reflections on her very damaged soul rather than recognize them as tragically awful truths.  We are compelled to without qualification honor Julie's sacrifices which, unlike Jean Valjean's or Uncle Tom's, are motivated only by her genuine romantic love and longing for and codependency on Billy.

Updated On: 10/5/17 at 08:22 AM

[BakerWilliams]

Posted: 10/5/17 at 8:23am

The show is incredibly subtle and very fragile to perform. Do it well and you get the production at Goodspeed a few years ago that was immeasurably moving. Do it poorly and you get the toxic film version. 

Judging by Jack O'Brien's staging of the similarly delicate The Front Page, I'd say the upcoming revival is headed for disaster.

[Smaxie]

Posted: 10/5/17 at 8:31am

The film blows the entire thing within its first minutes. 

[Call_me_jorge]

Posted: 10/5/17 at 8:31am

My video won’t show, but if you have time go over to Joshua Henry’s Instagram and watch his story. He sings if I loved you(for like 2 seconds) and he sounds great.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 10/5/17 at 10:28am

She passes along that reality to her daughter. She perpetuates a toxic idea.

This is always what has bothered me most and what I find difficult to digest in a post-feminist age.  To me, the only way you can play that controversial mother-daughter dialogue at the end is if Julie reacts in fear for her daughter, recognizing the same propensity towards codependency and abuse.  And if we get the film version of Julie's big smile at the end, it just gets washed away in ick.

[newintown]

Posted: 10/5/17 at 10:31am

I just squirm at that ultra-treacly message that says "all you have to do is say 'I love you' to make up for the rotten way you treat people."

[GeorgeandDot]

Posted: 10/5/17 at 11:29am

^That message isn't present anywhere in the show.  If you think that, that's the point of the ending, you didn't get it at all.

[newintown]

Posted: 10/5/17 at 1:21pm

"^That message isn't present anywhere in the show.  If you think that, that's the point of the ending, you didn't get it at all."

Says who?

[Cat Guy]

Posted: 10/5/17 at 6:25pm

"Carousel" is my favorite musical, and "If I Loved You" is brilliantly beautiful.

Here is a version you likely have not heard, sung by Julien Neel.

 

 

Updated On: 10/5/17 at 06:25 PM