Carousel opinions? — Page 2

I do not in any way think of If I Loved You as noble or inspiring song. It's a remarkably articulate expression of inarticulateness. The tragedy of their relationship is in that very first scene. They will never be able to express their love in any complete, adult way. Yes...the music is gorgeous, but that's what makes the tragedy of it all so difficult to bear. Had the underscoring been You'll Never Walk Alone, yes...inspiring. But If I Loved You is not that. It underscores the tragedy, rather than give credence to the idea that hittin' feels real good.

henrikegerman said: "Rinaldo, I was trying to remember how the estimable Sally Murphy played that scene in Hytner's revival, but I can't. Do you remember?"

Boy, I hesitate to trust my memory after all this time. That said, my recollection is that she played it along the lines some here have suggested: "Yes, it is.... [very long pause, then continuing in deadened tone] possible..." -- admitting that it was a sad, cold truth that she was reluctantly admitting.

SonofRobbieJ said: "I do not in any way think of If I Loved You as noble or inspiring song. It's a remarkably articulate expression of inarticulateness. The tragedy of their relationship is in that very first scene. They will never be able to express their love in any complete, adult way. Yes...the music is gorgeous, but that's what makes the tragedy of it all so difficult to bear. Had the underscoring been You'll Never Walk Alone, yes...inspiring. But If I Loved You is not that. It underscores the tragedy, rather than give credence to the idea that hittin' feels real good."



I agree completely, and I think the lyrics of the reprise -- which comes immediately after the exchange we're discussing -- proves your point even further.

"longing to tell you, but afraid and shy, I let my golden chances pass me by. Now I've lost you. Soon I will go in the mist of day, and you never will know how I loved."

^That is undoubtedly my favorite moment in the show. In my opinion it is one of the most heartbreaking moments in the history of musical theatre.

I've never been a big fan of Carousel. The score contains songs I really cannot stand and there are parts of the book that bother me. One of my biggest issues is how the balance just seems so off, especially when compared to the source material, which was much grittier and desperate. The first act divides the focus of the characters to the extent that Carrie gets more focus musically than Julie and the second act only introduces four new songs (the rest is the ballet and reprises). If I watch the film of Carousel, I really just fast forward to the bits I like.

That being said, I do think it contains their single greatest song, If I Loved You. When directed well, as Robbie describes, it is almost overwhelming in its beauty and devastation. The complexity of the song against the characters and scene, coupled with the emotional tension, almost gives me a full-on anxiety attack when I see it (something the film never achieves). It also contains two of their most beautiful melodies in the Carousel Waltz and You'll Never Walk Alone. But you still have to wade through stuff like June is Bustin Out All Over, layering the cheese on thick and heavy, or the dreaded Clambake number that stops everything cold so the characters can describe their dinner to us in detail (I can't think of a R&H song I hate more, actually). The 1994 revival is the only production I've seen that sold me on the material as a whole and I fear we may never reach that height again. The first act of the Chicago Lyric Opera production was nowhere close and it was a struggle for me to wait until intermission to leave. Many hail Carousel as the R&H masterpiece of their canon (other critics say it's South Pacific). I'd rank it around 4th or 5th. Maybe tied with Sound of Music for 4th place.

Here are my thoughts on Carousel and the film. I'll start with the film:

I would say it's one of those screen adaptations of a musical where it's not all out horrible but kinda forgettable and at times dull. I think the darkness of the material clashes tonally with how it's shot. I feel like Shirley Jones didn't understand the character. Her and Gordon MacRae are electric together in Oklahoma, and you just don't feel it as effectively here. They're just playing too broadly. It's archetypes. "Soliloquy" and "You'll Never Walk Alone" are the highlights I think (Him belting out in front of the shore is particularly stunning). I agree that the Bench scene feels somewhat flat. I think a filmed remake that really took it out of the proscenium golden age musical feel and let it be more human and intimate could do very well.

As for the musical itself, to say it "defends spousal abuse" is to not be able to see the moral complexity that is the piece. You're supposed to feel uncomfortable and gross, you're supposed to feel moved, you're supposed to feel devastated. Julie doesn't wake up and that is a reality. She passes along that reality to her daughter. She perpetuates a toxic idea.

In theme it is very in line with Sondheim. It's a thinker. It invites a discussion. You spend most of "Soliloquy" still being upset that he hit her, but you find yourself empathizing with his thought process.

And Carousel Waltz is Richard Rodgers's masterpiece.

rattleNwoolypenguin said: "As for the musical itself, to say it "defends spousal abuse" is to not be able to see the moral complexity that is the piece. You're supposed to feel uncomfortable and gross, you're supposed to feel moved, you're supposed to feel devastated. Julie doesn't wake up and that is a reality. She passes along that reality to her daughter. She perpetuates a toxic idea."

I agree that Julie doesn't wake up. But, as traditionally played, the show is deadset on consecrating Julie's codependency and making us feel in awe of her self-abnegation. That's the way it tries to move us. It in no sense asks us to realistically examine Julie's abused mentality. And certainly did not intend to discomfit the mainstream of its original audience (other than by the boldness of musicalizing a popular modern drama with many tragic elements), let alone gross that audience out. Nor, I daresay, did it envision that future generations would find Julie's self-effacement the least bit alarming.

Carousel certainly asks us to sympathize and pity Julie. But absent respectful and intelligent revision, textual or subtextual, it demands that we be unconditionally inspired rather than seriously distressed by Julie's self-effacement, that we unconditionally admire Julie's honest but myopically romantic reflections on her very damaged soul rather than recognize them as tragically awful truths. We are compelled to without qualification honor Julie's sacrifices which, unlike Jean Valjean's or Uncle Tom's, are motivated only by her genuine romantic love and longing for and codependency on Billy.

Updated On: 10/5/17 at 08:22 AM

The film blows the entire thing within its first minutes.

She passes along that reality to her daughter. She perpetuates a toxic idea.

This is always what has bothered me most and what I find difficult to digest in a post-feminist age. To me, the only way you can play that controversial mother-daughter dialogue at the end is if Julie reacts in fear for her daughter, recognizing the same propensity towards codependency and abuse. And if we get the film version of Julie's big smile at the end, it just gets washed away in ick.

^That message isn't present anywhere in the show. If you think that, that's the point of the ending, you didn't get it at all.

"Carousel" is my favorite musical, and "If I Loved You" is brilliantly beautiful.

Here is a version you likely have not heard, sung by Julien Neel.

Updated On: 10/5/17 at 06:25 PM