Carousel opinions?

[WaffleOnWheels]

Posted: 10/2/17 at 7:47pm

I've been getting quite excited about the upcoming Carousel revival. I think the score is delicious, and I could listen to it any day.

However, anyone I've ever mentioned it to people, there is a visible distaste of it. My drama teacher even called it the one show she wished did not exist. 

Is this opinion popular? It's making me hesitant. 

[JSquared2]

Posted: 10/2/17 at 7:49pm

WaffleOnWheels said: "I've been getting quite excited about the upcoming Carousel revival. I think the score is delicious, and I could listen to it any day.

However, anyone I've ever mentioned it to people, there is a visible distaste of it. My drama teacher even called it the one show she wished did not exist.

Is this opinion popular? It's making me hesitant."

Sorry --- but your drama teacher is an idiot. 

[GeorgeandDot]

Posted: 10/2/17 at 8:27pm

^Agreed.  Anyone who looks at Carousel and says that it's "distasteful" is looking at it from a ridiculously shallow point of view.  Your drama teacher should analyze the piece more thoroughly.  A lot of people seem to have the opinion that it excuses domestic violence, even though it tells you multiple times that, that's not the case.  People seem to think that some things are just black and white, but the truth is that everything's on a spectrum.  Some people are like Julie where their husband is abusive, but they're in denial and find themselves still in love with him.  While others like Jenna in Waitress, for example, loathe their PoS husband and understand that he's abusive.  There are also many women in between.  Take Carrie in Carousel for instance, her husband is emotionally abusive and incredibly controlling and yet no one bats an eye and thinks his behavior is just fine because he's "nice."  Well, in the words of Stephen Sondheim, "nice is different than good."   Then we have the abusive husband, Billy, who is a victim of the cycle of abuse who no matter how hard he tries cannot seem to break it.  The shows shows his struggle with his own deep emotional problems, but never once tries to pass off his abuse as acceptable at all.  When Julie says that "he hit, but it didn't hurt at all" she means that he hurt her, but she's in such deep denial that she didn't even feel it.  Look at What's the use of wondering, it drips with denial.  I'm a woman who dealt with abuse like Julie and found myself in such deep love with my abuser that I would just ignore it.  Finally, he realized that he had a deep problem and went for serious therapy and was able to break the cycle of abuse.  To brush off Julie and Billy's story is to brush off the story of many men and women like us.  The show is not distasteful or problematic the show is IMPORTANT and the last revival opened up my eyes to my situation and I hope this revival opens the eyes of many other people.

Also, apologies for making this so f*cking long.

Updated On: 10/2/17 at 08:27 PM

[raddersons]

Posted: 10/2/17 at 10:20pm

I think the content is good and nuanced, and obviously on Broadway it will have high production value and great talent, which is what’s so exciting about it. That being said...

Rogers and Hammerstein shows are very hard to pull off. A mediocre Carousel ends up being really boring, and can even come off as promoting domestic violence. Because it’s such a classic, I feel like a lot of people have sat through a bad production of Carousel and rolled their eyes at it, thinking “it’s a bad show”, not “it’s a bad production of a good show”

Updated On: 10/2/17 at 10:20 PM

[dramamama611]

Posted: 10/2/17 at 10:32pm

Trust your own opinion.  YOU are intrigued by it and like what you know of it.  Who cares what your drama teacher thinks?  She is entitled to her opinion....but that's all it is.

 

I hate Rent....many of my students love it.  So be it.  Different strokes.

[Itonlytakesajourney]

Posted: 10/2/17 at 10:51pm

Carousel is gorgeous. Most R&H shows are, but this one shines in a different light only comparable to perhaps South Pacific. The score, the characters, the story... I'm sorry, but if your drama teacher finds it "promoting domestic abuse" (which you didn't say, but I'm 99% sure she was thinking), then she needs to look harder at this show. 

[JBroadway]

Posted: 10/3/17 at 12:42am

I agree with GeorgeandDot in this case. People think the show excuses domestic violence mainly because of one line at the end about the slap feeling like a kiss. But I think it's important to note that the rest of the play is clearly anti-abuse, and that one line should not negate that, nor should it necessarily be taken to mean that R&H believed that victims of domestic violence should forgive their abusers. The key word here is "complexity." Julie, Billy, and Louise are all very troubled and complex people. They've been hurt by the world and by those around them, and as such they view the world in complex ways. What they say or feel about a certain topic should not be viewed as a direct line of advice from Hammerstein's mind to our ears. The fact that Billy is sympathetic should be an indication of the play's willingness to dig deep into its characters and their struggles, and present 3-dimensional characters. Not that we should forgive him his faults.

I understand where opposing view is coming from, however. Many people who take this stance are people my own age, and who come from a place of wanting social justice. The problem is that in many real-life cases of abuse - particularly with sexual assault, though also with other forms of violence - abusers are often given passes because of blurred lines, and because of misplaced sympathy. Today's social justice movements call for hard lines to be drawn because it protects victims of abuse from people who may not outwardly appear to be abusers, who often do not see that their own actions are abusive. For someone with this social context to then see a show that does NOT draw hard lines, can understandably elicit a negative creation. We don't want to see art promoting ideas that could de-legitimize the experiences of abuse victims. 

This is where they are coming from, and I understand. I do think they need to look more closely at the piece to see not only what its true stance on the issue is, but also to see how beautiful and complex the story is. Unfortunately, few have had that opportunity, especially if they do see poorly directed productions of it. 

Updated On: 10/3/17 at 12:42 AM

[MCfan2]

Posted: 10/3/17 at 12:54am

That was VERY well put, JBroadway. I'm not a big fan of Carousel's story or characters (though the music is beautiful), but you just might make me rethink them a little.  

[TheSassySam]

Posted: 10/3/17 at 1:13am

dramamama611 said: "I hate Rent....many of my students love it. So be it. Different strokes."

 

I read this in the tone of "So What" from Cabaret. 

 

But really, if Carousel intrigues you, embrace it. Your drama teacher has their opinions and it's OK to have that dialogue. 

[newintown]

Posted: 10/3/17 at 7:53am

I prefer Liliom, but Carousel has some very interesting moments. I find that Rodgers & Hammerstein were never very comfortable with dark & dirty (i.e., the desexualization of the hookers in Pipe Dream), and so even the darkest moments of their shows seem (to me) to still have a strong hint of bright pastel. Which is, probably, why some of their shows are so wildly popular among the masses.

[CallMeAl2]

Posted: 10/3/17 at 4:32pm

For me, Carousel is flawed dramatically. True, it's a beautiful show with great songs and moments - a lot to recommend it and enjoy.

But Billy dies halfway through the second act, and nothing after that is as dramatic and consequential. The show just seems to keep going with that big ballet and then Billy meets Louise, then Julie, then the graduation. It finally relies on the big hymn "You'll Never Walk Alone" to try and provide dramatic heft. But, for me, the song adds nothing but sentiment - a poor substitute for actual drama. 

In my opinion the drama would be better served cutting the ballet and trying to get from Billy's death to reunion with Julie and Louise faster. I think the only reason all that stuff is there is because Hammerstein didn't think he could end his show with a death - something that West Side Story proved could work a decade later.

Updated On: 10/3/17 at 04:32 PM

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 10/4/17 at 2:33pm

Having loved Carousel for over twenty years, and directed it somewhat recently, I have the following thoughts:

1. Great score

2. Interesting story and characters

3. Historically important as one of the first "serious" musicals

4. The domestic abuse in the play was handled somewhat poorly even by 1940's standards, and today it is very problematic. Yes, even people like Billy who are ultimately good can sometimes be abusive. Yes, there are people like Julie who just love them so much that they just lay down and take it. But that is not a story that we particularly need to be told right now.

 

Also, pretty much everything that happens after Billy dies with the Starkeeper and everything is just cheesy and stupid.

[JBroadway]

Posted: 10/4/17 at 2:50pm

It's interesting that both of you say that about Billy's death, because I feel the exact opposite. With the exception of some key moments (namely "If I Loved You," "Soliloquy," and "What's The Use of Wond'rin'" I think everything that happens BEFORE Billy's death is kind of slow and lacking in drama. For me, the moment when Billy dies is when the show truly begins, and most of what leads up to that point has just been laying the groundwork. Imagining Carousel without Billy's afterlife and subsequent return to earth is like Our Town without act 3, or It's A Wonderful Life without Clarence's intervention. It's gets to the heart of everything important. It IS the show.

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 10/4/17 at 2:51pm

Is there or is there not a sensitive, respectful, non-patronizing way to direct/act Julie so that her reflections on her abuse reach us truthfully as her own words alone- sincere, troubled, troubling revelations from a battered, compromised, doing-the-best-she-can-in-life widow who still has intense feelings for her late abuser -  rather than as a proud and prescriptive credo issued from a seeming paragon of perfect female submission/rectitude?  

Put differently, is there any persuasive alternative to the infuriating (convincing but infuriating!) way Shirley Jones played the scene in the movie?

Also, I certainly agree with jbroadway about the show's dramatic structure.

Updated On: 10/4/17 at 02:51 PM

[GeorgeandDot]

Posted: 10/4/17 at 3:06pm

I love Shirley Jones, but her performance is terrible in the film.  Actually the film is just terrible.

If you want to see Carousel performed perfectly, watch the Lincoln Center concert with Kelli O'Hara, Nathan Gunn, and Jessie Mueller.

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 10/4/17 at 3:15pm

I would change the staging.  I'd have Louise ask 'But is it possible, Mother, for someone to hit you hard like that - real loud and hard, and it not hurt you at all?'   I'd then have Julie shake her head, or in some other non-verbal way, tell Louise 'No.'  I'd have Louise leave, and then have Julie admit to herself 'It is possible dear, for someone to hit you, hit you hard, and it not hurt at all.'  As if she could barely keep that in.  I'd argue that would allow her to protect her daughter from the cycle of abuse, while also allowing her to live in the profoundly f*cked up truth of her relationship.  Remember...Billy witnesses all of this, and needs to reconcile that his behavior has lived on after him...even in death.  His suicide didn't protect his daughter from his terrible choices...in some ways, it magnified them.  

Updated On: 10/4/17 at 03:15 PM

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 10/4/17 at 3:21pm

Bravo, SonofRobbie!

I'm sure some purists would be screaming about the change in the text (correction: all will be revealed below, I'm wrong that SonofRobbie was suggesting any change in the text), but with the right actress that could be absolutely beautiful.  With Mueller, transcendent.

Updated On: 10/4/17 at 03:21 PM

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 10/4/17 at 3:28pm

At least the only thing I changed was a stage direction!!!  Every word written by Hammerstein for each of the characters remains!

I wanted to watch the scene to make sure there were no further lines for Louise after Julie's admission...holy sh*t is that some f*cked up **** in the movie!!  I mean...there are SMILES!!!  And it's not like Gordon MacRae was able to summon horror as Billy to let us know that the women's bonding over abuse was actually a HORRIBLE thing.  

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 10/4/17 at 3:30pm

^ even better then!  I thought that "no" was an addition but I guess I was wrong.

addendum:  OK, I just reread your post and realized that the "no" was non-verbal and then Louise exits.  So there's no change in the text.  Got it!

Updated On: 10/4/17 at 03:30 PM

[GeorgeandDot]

Posted: 10/4/17 at 3:30pm

Well, Billy's hit doesn't hurt because he's a ghost and not a tangible person.  This puzzles Louise so she mentions it to her mother and to her mother it means something entirely different.  That's how I've always interpreted it, but what RobbieJ describes would work too and I can't imagine that it would anger too many purists.

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 10/4/17 at 3:41pm

GeorgeandDot said: "Well, Billy's hit doesn't hurt because he's a ghost and not a tangible person. This puzzles Louise so she mentions it to her mother and to her mother it means something entirely different. That's how I've always interpreted it, but what RobbieJ describes would work too and I can't imagine that it would anger too many purists."

Your interpretation, GeorgeandDot, appears inescapable.  But even so Julie is still - and here I think SonofRobbie has his finger on what makes the unaltered scene so challengingly jarring (and NOT in a good way, at least not without some marked adjustment from the way Jones played it) -  imparting her own damaged mess on Louise.  

Updated On: 10/4/17 at 03:41 PM

[Rinaldo]

Posted: 10/4/17 at 3:48pm

The idea that Julie's "it's possible for him to hit you and not hurt at all" line could be acted as a sad private admission, might be workable (and would certainly be desirable) except that the music of "If I Loved You" is throbbing away instrumentally in the background to tell us that this is a noble and inspiring sentiment. Changing a stage direction is one thing, but what about eliminating underscoring?

To clarify, I'm a purist about revivals in general, but I do think that something (something minimally invasive, one would hope) has to be done with this aspect of Carousel, if we're going to continue to perform it. Maybe it can all be done with multilayered acting, but it would have to be extraordinary acting and directing, because not much of @GeorgeandDot and @JBroadway's excellent analysis is actually there in the text of this scene.

[JBroadway]

Posted: 10/4/17 at 3:54pm

For what it's worth, the ENO production directed by Lonny Price showed Billy watching this exchange, and they added him shouting "no!" after Julie's line. Indicating the he regrets what he's done, and he doesn't want Julie to allow the cycle of abuse to continue. I assume they had permission from the R&H estate since it was such a high profile production. This is the same production that completely re-thought the Carousel Watlz, making it tell the story of the show in reverse as a ballet, beginning with the graduation, then extending all the way back into Billy's childhood. They showed young Billy's father hitting him for trying to hide his booze from him. 

It was a really wonderfully thought-out production, but it was ruined by the dreadful acting of Alfie Boe. Really one of the worst musical theatre performances I've ever seen. What I would have given to see that same production done with Josh Henry, or another actor of his caliber. 

[Rinaldo]

Posted: 10/4/17 at 3:59pm

The "No!" was also part of the Nicholas Hytner production.

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 10/4/17 at 4:05pm

I do not in any way think of If I Loved You as noble or inspiring song.  It's a remarkably articulate expression of inarticulateness.  The tragedy of their relationship is in that very first scene.  They will never be able to express their love in any complete, adult way.  Yes...the music is gorgeous, but that's what makes the tragedy of it all so difficult to bear.  Had the underscoring been You'll Never Walk Alone, yes...inspiring.  But If I Loved You is not that.  It underscores the tragedy, rather than give credence to the idea that hittin' feels real good.