Does Avenue Q owe Urinetown for The Tony for Best Musical?- Page 2

[nystateomind04]

Posted: 10/16/04 at 1:24am

Look, I realize that this isn't the topic of this thread, but I feel like I have to respond to this statement:

"I'm sorry but I fail to see how Caroline was robbed. It was hardly robbed. The show just wasn't that good."

Caroline, or Change is VASTLY supperior to Wicked in form, content, style, performance, EVERYTHING except the fact that it was not what you may call an "audience pleaser". Now, if it is okay to raise the question "did Q deserve the Tony over Wicked, and if so, does it owe that victory to Urinetown", then it is fair to point out that there was (in many peoples opinions) another worthy candidate for Best Musical, this year, as well. Now, is Caroline better than Q? Well, I certainly think so, but that is just the way it goes sometimes.

If you saw Caroline and didn't like it, it was NOT because it "wasn't that good", but because that is not your kind of show, and that is fine. BUT, I do not think it is fair to say that the show isn't "good" because it didn't suit your taste. Any analysis of Caroline's score and lyrics alone would show that, even if one does not care for the show, doesn NOT mean that it is in any way appropriote to brush this work of art aside the way you did.

It is my hope that years from now people will look back and remember Caroline as the most provocative, moving, and overall BEST show of this past season.
Updated On: 10/16/04 at 01:24 AM

[bythesword84]

Posted: 10/16/04 at 2:10am

It has nothing to do with it being "my kind of show." I thought the lyrics were horrendous, the acting was mediocre, the music was enough to put someone to sleep, the lighting and sets were nothing short of "okay." You sound as if you think I don't like it because it was "deep" which is hardly the case at all. I prefer a show which causes me to think and see the symbolism.

I think the point here had nothing to do with whether COC should have been considered. People can like it all they want but to say that it was a contender in this year's Best Musical Tony is just not true. People may have liked to have seen it be a contender but it wasn't. It just wasn't that spectacular that it was going to blow away those other two. It just wasn't going to happen. Maybe if you put it in a year where there were not two powerhouse shows, maybe. You have to look at it Tony voter style. How many of the voters said they voted for Q because they wanted it to tour? Caroline was not a show that would have done well on tour. I'm not saying it would have done badly, but they wanted a show like Q or like Wicked. Caroline is a hard sell to theater fans, imagine how hard it would be to sell to others.

I'm sorry but I will never see how Caroline was moving, provocative, or even remotely good. I'm not the biggest Wicked fan in the world but I'll say this for it, it was better than COC. Then again, anything I've seen in the last 10 years aside from Rent and Hairspray was better than Caroline.

[bjivie2]

Posted: 10/16/04 at 3:59am

I guess it COULD have been a factor. Not a MAIN one, but yes, a factor nonetheless. The MAIN factor, I would think, would be Avenue Q's genius marketing campaign to win the Tony.

[robbiej]

Posted: 10/16/04 at 10:42am

I've looked in my crystal ball and can say, definitively, that CAROLINE will be remembered as the GYPSY of 2004...a spectacular, deeply affecting show that didn't win any Tonys.

And if WICKED went up against MILLIE for Tony in the same year, I would have given it to WICKED any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

[nystateomind04]

Posted: 10/16/04 at 1:58pm

Thank you, robbiej.

bythesword- I never said that you cannot appreciate CoC because it is "deep", I don't know enough about you to make that kind of judgement call. But I have to question your credibility if you have the nerve to call CoC's lyrics "horrendous", and to make a statement like Wicked is "better than" Caroline. Listen to some of Wicked's lyrics. Now that is an example of horrendous.

[bythesword84]

Posted: 10/16/04 at 2:21pm

You can't question someone's credibility based on the fact that they didn't like one show. I'm sorry I would have to put Wicked's lyrics and Caroline's lyrics on the same page. Neither show was anything fantastic in terms of score- at all. I have seen many a show and neither of these two stand out as fantastic, however, Wicked (although incredibly long) didn't make me want to walk out at intermission.

[nystateomind04]

Posted: 10/16/04 at 2:45pm

I question your credibility because you can't find any appreciation for Caroline's lyrics. They are very well-constructed, loaded, and layered with emotional and political subtext. There is NONE of this in Wicked- NONE. They are shallow and obvious, and the same can be said for most of the score. I will admit to getting swept up in the charm of "Popular" and the intensity of "Defying Gravity"- but those are really the only note-worthy songs in that entire score. Caroline's score is just that- a score. It challenges and (in my case at least) stimulates the audience, and leaves them with something stronger to hold on to than- "wow, I'll never think of 'The Wizard of Oz' in the same way again", or "wow, that green girl could sing really high".

If you wanted to leave Caroline at intermission, it's not because the show did not have decent enough content to keep you stimulated- but because you could not recognize that content, or because it didn't appeal to you. Not everyone enjoys a lot of great pieces of theater. A lot of people can't sit through "A Streetcar Named Desire", but that, in my humble opinion, is a reflection on them, and not on the material.

[bythesword84]

Posted: 10/16/04 at 4:29pm

I've had people say things to me about disliking Caroline before, and yet I'm sorry but I cannot see how saying that I thought Wicked was okay and Caroline was not does anything for credibility. I don't go to a show to compare it to something else. Each show is an entity unto itself. Caroline's lighting was enough to put a person to sleep before the score even takes hold. The lyrics at the beginning of both the first and second acts were so completely muffled that I'm shocked anyone could even hear it. People then always say to me, well maybe you saw it on a bad night. I'm sorry but if opening night is deemed a "bad night" that's just sad.

I see the symbolism. I see the depth. I see what they attempted to do and I think they were highly ineffective in pulling it off. I absolutely saw all the content in Caroline or Change. I understood it. I sat through it.

My credibility has nothing to do with it. I am just as credible as anyone elses and the fact that I thought a show was poorly done has nothing to do with it. I've run into a ton of people who have criticized my dislike of Caroline and you know what, that's fine, they don't have to agree with me. Most of them, however (and I'm not saying this is you) did not even see the show and were basing their reactions to it on a cast recording.

If I've said it 1000 times, make this 1001, a person simply can NOT be an honest judge of an entire show based on only hearing a cast recording. It is just not possible. I don't care if the person sees the tour, west end, london, regional, or whatever kind of performance but until the person sits down and actually has to watch the show in its entire form they cannot state whether or not the show was any good. A show is not just made up of a score. It comprises a heck of a lot of other things and if you want to say that Caroline was superior to all the other shows this season simply because (which I disagree with anyway) its score was excellent, that's just wrong. You can like the score all you want but if you want to talk about the show in compared to other shows you cannot base it on score alone, it has to be based on its entire package. Caroline's lighting was awful, the costuming was decent but not memorable, the sets were okay, and the acting was nothing to write home about.

[bjivie2]

Posted: 10/16/04 at 6:13pm

I completely disagree that the only way to be an honest judge of a show is to sit down and watch it. If you're talking about a production, then that's different, but if you looking at the show ONLY, then all these things you're talking about - lighting, costumes, direction, sound - don't matter. If we're looking at a show on the merrit of writing only, then all you need is the script and the music. I don't judge you on your disliking of Caroline, but I think people need to realize that just because you don't like a show, doesn't mean that you can't recognize it as a groundbreaking musical and respect it for what it's done for the medium of theatre.

I also think it's incredibly ignorant not to consider CoC's score as one of the best in the last decade. It's depth, it's mastery of style, it's mood, and the flow of that score is impeccable, and I would most definitely list it as one of the best scores for a musical. Period.

When the script to CoC comes out, I would highly encourage you to put behind you the Broadway production, purchase the script, read it and then make your own decision on the show. I think you might be surprised.

[bythesword84]

Posted: 10/16/04 at 6:19pm

I never said anyone else wasn't allowed to like it. Like it all you want, it doesn't matter to me at all. I just don't see it as groundbreaking on any level.

[nystateomind04]

Posted: 10/16/04 at 7:22pm

For the record, I did see Caroline. I saw it before hearing the cast recording, and I loved it, the recording only enhanced it for me afterwards.

And I do agree with you that the sound design in the theater was a bit muffled, which is unfortunate considering how great I consider the lyrics to be. But on the other hand, it forced me to pay much more attention to everything happening on that stage, and I appreciated it all the more for it.

[bythesword84]

Posted: 10/16/04 at 7:26pm

I never said you didn't see Caroline. I saw Caroline too, and after sitting through opening night I could never go back to see it again. I just wouldn't put myself through that.

[StrStruckDreamr9]

Posted: 10/22/04 at 8:05pm

I agree with Hunter Foster and Jennifer Laura Thomas in that Urinetown sort of made unconventional musicals acceptable in the Broadway community. I mean, with a premise like that, who would have thought that it would work? I think that the same goes for Avenue Q. So, while I don't think that Ave Q owes Urinetown for its Tony per se, I think that Urinetown in a way paved the way for current and future non-traditional musicals.

[Plum]

Posted: 10/22/04 at 8:20pm

People might have had Urinetown on the brain when this year's Tony race was going on, but I think plenty of them just decided to hop off the overwhelming Wicked bandwagon and vote for the smaller but better-executed show. I'm sure getting told that you have to vote for Wicked got annoying after a while.

As for Caroline...at the time of the Tonys, I thought Avenue Q should have won. Once I saw Caroline, my mind was changed. It isn't as perfectly executed as Q, which was just pitch-perfect in everything it attempted, but had higher ambitions, and reached them far more often than not.

As I remember, the Caroline appreciation threads, and the widespread love for the show on this board, didn't start until after the Tonys. I know that this place is hardly a reflection of the wider theatergoing public, but I wonder how the show would have done had it opened a bit earlier on Broadway. I also hope that Caroline gains popularity in the future. Or better yet, that Kushner and Tesori make another go at creating a musical in the future. Updated On: 10/22/04 at 08:20 PM