Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about- Page 5
Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
#100Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/10/16 at 10:22am
Hogan, thanks for those kind words! it seems like we're the only sensible people left.
I actually kind of find the term "showtune" offensives and belittling, making it sound like they're just simple little ditties.
#101Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/10/16 at 11:00am
@aaaaaa I agree. People here love to say things in absolute terms and in the extreme. But in the real world things evolve over time; they don't change on a dime. So no one musical causes a sea change, and no, someone is unlikely to fall in love with She Loves Me because of Hamilton. But over the last quarter century we have seen a gradual return of musical theatre to the popular culture arena, as more and more writers from the latter have attempted to scale the musical theatre genre. After Hair, musicals tiptoed in that direction, but still with at least one foot firmly planted in the past. After Rent, the shift became more noticeable. And today there is very little of that traditional musical theatre sensibility except in homages and parodies. Just look at this year's nominees. Not much for After Eight to kvell over.
#102Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/10/16 at 9:24pm
HogansHero said: "@qolbinau nice try but opinions are still not right or wrong (even though the ones that amount to guesses on future events might later prove to be), and hyperbole is still a valid device.
@gaveston "hate" is not my word but I do believe (and the data backs me up unless you don't believe data) that a large majority of people dislike musicals. And ironically, I suspect that growing up on them is part of the cause because (1) they were force fed to us in school, often by teachers who didn't do a very good job of making them resonate for us (ditto, even more sadly, for Shakespeare) and (2) as adults they are viewed as kids' stuff-to be left behind with Thomas the Train. Add to the mix that the music is so different from that which is popular with kids and you understand why the theatre comes off as medicine rather than candy. My 10 year old nephew has been rapping for a few years-guess what musical he wants to see....
"
Hogan, with respect, I think most of that is exactly what I said. Like opera (and Victorian novels and Impressionist paintings), musicals have a set of conventions and if one doesn't understand the conventions, one isn't likely to enjoy either the form. The general indifference to musical theater in this country is a product of poor education--but since most students can't find the U.S. on a map, I'm not going to argue that studying MY FAIR LADY should be the top priority.
So if you must insist that opinions cannot be right or wrong (How can the opinion "Donal Trump is authentic" not be wrong when 90% of what he says is demonstrably untrue?), then perhaps you'd prefer the adjectives "educated" and "ignorant". Yes, some people are educated about musical theater and still dislike it; but in my experience they are quite few in number.
#103Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/10/16 at 10:06pm
aaaaaa15 said: "I don't see why a fan of Hamilton wouldn't find things to love in shows like Spring Awakening, Next to Normal, Rent, Dear Evan Hansen, In the Heights, Fun Home etc. etc.
"
I would think so too, but I can think of one reason - they have made no effort to see anything except Hamilton and find something to like! (e.g., Lebowitz).
Of course, this apparently doesn't matter, her 'opinion' that Hamilton is the best and only good musical of the last 65 years is still somehow 'informed'. Would love to reiterate After Eight's point here: There is only one show. The greatest show ever written, and that ever will be written. And this is it. It begins and ends here.
"Perhaps you'd prefer the adjectives "educated" and "ignorant""
Yes - I discussed a dimension of "informed" vs "not informed" opinions, which would be a similar idea to this. Lebowitz is clearly ignorant in the domain of musicals and her opinion that Hamilton is the best and only good musical of the last 65 years is rather meaningless if she doesn't know much about the musicals of the last 65 years.
#104Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/10/16 at 10:14pm
@Gaveston, also with respect, I couldn't disagree more and you could not misunderstand my education point more.
First, I don't agree there are conventions and certainly not conventions as to which the audience requires education. Adherence to conventions is what got musicals in the sorry state it was in for the better part of a half century.
Second, musical theatre is not opera; it is a form of popular entertainment. That's its provenance, and again, what got musicals in trouble was when it diverged from the popular coverage over a half century ago.
Third, the schools are complicit not in failing to "teach" musical theatre to kids, but in force-feeding them antiquated musicals that they are turned off by once they outgrow them. (And if you talk to kids, you'll hear that they think musicals are for children and once they aspire to adulthood, it goes out with the trains and building blocks etc. )
I don't think there is serious difficulty appreciating the difference between an opinion and something that is demonstrable. If it is demonstrable, it is not an opinion.
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