Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about- Page 3
Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
#50Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/9/16 at 12:05am
That's the thing. I agree the general public is ignorant--or indifferent really to musicals. I disagree with the statement that, like Fran, the greater population "hates" musicals. Most don't care enough.
#51Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/9/16 at 12:43am
@qolbinau I don't see where I condescended; it was certainly not my intention. You, on the other hand, called her and apparently now most of the world ignorant, which strikes me as more than a little condescending, but no matter.
You stated two of her opinions. You then said she did not know what she was talking about (which, in essence, means she does not know what her own opinions are). I assume what you really meant was that you disagreed with her opinions (and we needn't even discuss that you cannot "prove" an opinion one way or the other because opinions are not facts.) So it seems to me what you offered was a garden variety posture that only your opinion counts. In noting that most people don't like musicals (or hate them if you want to go for Fran's hyperbole) I was simply countering your post putatively proving that she doesn't know what she's talking about by offering the fact that since most people share her opinion (some without hyperbole) your " proof" was not on very firm footing. Now that I have the benefit of your last post, I now know that you think everyone who disagrees with you is ignorant. Very well then.
@Eric I think you are right most people's attitude does not rise to the level of hate, but as we have been rehearsing here for a while now, you have to filter Fran's " hate" through the hyperbole that is her trademark. And I think a fairly large segment of the population indeed knows nothing about the theatre because most of the population has never been exposed to it. So perhaps the right way to frame this is to say that most culturally aware people (and as a quintessential New Yorker Fran certainly has that pedigree) do not like musicals.
I'm always surprised when people here get so defensive about the fact that they love something that has not, for many years, enjoyed a prominent place in our broader culture. I can't think of any other art form that exhibits that kind of sentiment.
#52Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/9/16 at 12:56am
"I don't see where I condescended; it was certainly not my intention. You, on the other hand, called her and apparently now most of the world ignorant, which strikes me as more than a little condescending, but no matter."
Let's be clear that I am only (at this point in time) suggesting she is ignorant about this particular topic. Though I will say I do hold no reservations or shame to say that indeed I do believe humans (including myself) are ignorant about many things.
"I assume what you really meant was that you disagreed with her opinions (and we needn't even discuss that you cannot "prove" an opinion one way or the other because opinions are not facts.)"
What I meant was that her opinions are ill-informed. There is no way that someone can claim there has been only one good musical in the last 65 years unless they know a lot about musicals, which Fran Lebowitz clearly doesn't given she doesn't attend the theatre often. This is why she doesn't know what she is talking about.
#53Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/9/16 at 1:41am
sorry but I think that's preposterous.
People don't immerse themselves in what they dislike. You don't; I don't. When we don't like something, we move on. I don't like roller coasters. I don't need to travel the world riding roller coasters to make certain I am not just ignorant of their pleasures. I don't like atonal music. I don't need to go to more concerts or crank up more atonal music on Spotify to make sure. Lebo doesn't like musicals and, now that she's a grown woman, she does not owe it to you or anyone to become better informed about something she does not like before letting us know she doesn't like it. I think you are WAY off base here.
#54Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/9/16 at 1:50am
Yes but her claim is stronger than simply she doesn't like musicals - her claim is that Hamilton is the only good musical in her lifetime (i.e., the last 65 years). I think that is absurd and preposterous.
If you suddenly came out and advocated that the one of the few roller coasters you had ever been on is the only good roller coaster in operation today, or that a particular piece of atonal music (out of the few you had heard) is the only good atonal music in your lifetime I would similarly think such claims would be ridiculous. Of course you can say (based on your experience) you dislike roller coasters and atonal music, that's your subjective experience and cannot be wrong.
Similarly, she can dislike musicals, that's fine. But if she wants to claim anything beyond "Hamilton is the only musical I enjoyed", she should be better informed.
aaaaaa15
Broadway Legend Joined: 8/31/15
#55Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/9/16 at 4:50am
Jane2 said: "Put on your listening ears, son. Yes, we've established that she doesn't go often. I said she doesn't go often because SHE DOESN'T LIKE IT. Getting it now?
So that makes it okay for her to make outlandish statements like there has only been one good musical in her lifetime while she openly admits that she barely sees any? That isn't an ignorant thing to say?
This was not directed at you, put on your seeing glasses. I said "apropos of" in general, not to you.
And it's refreshing to hear that you don't care whether I like rap or not. At least you finally admit to no being bothered about other peoples' opinions. Yay!"
If you quote me and then carry on a post, I'm going to assume it's still directed at me unless you say otherwise. And I'm sorry, do you want me to care about your opinion on rap? I've never tried to claim that I care about other people's opinions so it's not a case of 'finally admitting'. I might care about the opinions of people I know, or admire, but I don't know you and no, I don't care about whether you like rap or not, as I'm sure you don't care whether I do.
Also, please stop with the condescension. I can read and hear perfectly fine. If your posts are unclear as to what you mean, then that's not my fault.
#56Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/9/16 at 10:05am
Once again (I don't know how many times it has to be said to sink in): it's f***ing hyperbole. If you can accept that she might only like one musical she has ever seen, you should be able to process the fact that her style is, as rehearsed WAY above, "curmudgeonly hyperbole." Maybe her style of commentary does not resonate for you, just as the musical style of theatre does not resonate for her, but your unwillingness to appreciate that the same things do not resonate for all of us but that that does not make them wrong is very, uh, after eight-ish.
Mr Roxy
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/17/03
#57Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/9/16 at 10:10am
In the grand scheme of things Who Gives A ****** ****
#58Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/9/16 at 10:18am
Fran really was great fun - 30 years ago, when she was working toward the easy-to-achieve goal of being the 80's answer to Dorothy Parker (and only the essayist Dot; not the excellent short story writer or adept screenwriter, or merely-OK playwright). And she achieved that goal for a maybe a year or two. But since then, she's been mostly just smoking cigarettes and coasting on a minuscule and yellowing output of amusing essays. A great disappointment to those of us who expected years of good work from her.
#59Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/9/16 at 11:32am
Goblin said "What I meant was that her opinions are ill-informed. There is no way that someone can claim there has been only one good musical in the last 65 years unless they know a lot about musicals, which Fran Lebowitz clearly doesn't given she doesn't attend the theatre often. This is why she doesn't know what she is talking about."
But I'm repeating that it's only her opinion that Hamilton is the only good musical, etc. That doesn't mean it's a fact. None of our opinions on art can be misconstrued as facts.
#60Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/9/16 at 12:09pm
aaaa said "Also, please stop with the condescension. I can read and hear perfectly fine. If your posts are unclear as to what you mean, then that's not my fault."
I'm sorry. I was in a bad mood last night and had no patience. Please forgive me.
aaaaaa15
Broadway Legend Joined: 8/31/15
#61Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/9/16 at 12:31pm
No problem.
Ranger Tom
Leading Actor Joined: 7/6/14
#62Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/9/16 at 2:25pm
EricMontreal22 said: "That's the thing. I agree the general public is ignorant--or indifferent really to musicals. I disagree with the statement that, like Fran, the greater population "hates" musicals. Most don't care enough."
Thanks Eric. It's rarely "hate" and mostly indifference. Same with much in the arts indie films, anime, poetry, opera, and (cough) art photography. I wonder what her comment would be if an icon of the musical theater world - say Angela Lansbury - came out and said that Joan Marcus was the only "good" photographer of her lifetime?
#63Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/9/16 at 2:28pm
"I wonder what her comment would be if an icon of the musical theater world - say Angela Lansbury - came out and said that Joan Marcus was the only "good" photographer of her lifetime?"
Or if Lisa Kron said that David Sedaris is the only good satirical essayist of her lifetime.
#64Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/9/16 at 3:17pm
Ranger Tom said: "I wonder what her comment would be if an icon of the musical theater world - say Angela Lansbury - came out and said that Joan Marcus was the only "good" photographer of her lifetime?"
why would she care? Fran ≠ Annie
After Eight
Broadway Legend Joined: 6/5/09
#65Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/9/16 at 4:06pm
Mmm, her statement seems to fly in the face of the theory that people who know nothing of musicals will suddenly be drawn to them by their fervor for the greatest show of all time.
I now eagerly await her effusions for everything from Roberta to Sponge Bob.
#66Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/9/16 at 4:52pm
After Eight said: "Mmm, her statement seems to fly in the face of the theory that people who know nothing of musicals will suddenly be drawn to them by their fervor for the greatest show of all time."
walk us through that. The logic is more elusive than usual, even for you.
aaaaaa15
Broadway Legend Joined: 8/31/15
#67Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/9/16 at 4:58pm
After Eight said: "Mmm, her statement seems to fly in the face of the theory that people who know nothing of musicals will suddenly be drawn to them by their fervor for the greatest show of all time."
There's a difference between people that actively dislike musicals and those that have just never thought to give them a chance before. The latter group is the one that people could see being introduced to musicals as an interest through Hamilton, or any other show that reaches the mainstream.
#68Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/9/16 at 5:17pm
Why do you guys care so much if she doesn't like musicals? Jesus Christ not everyone has to love everything you love.
#69Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/9/16 at 5:34pm
@gypsy thank you. Sometimes I think you and I are the only ones who don't feel defensive that we like something that is not enjoying widespread enthusiasm. (Even if what we enjoy may not always be the same thing LOL)
#70Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/9/16 at 6:14pm
Musicals being in the top 2 awful inventions is a hyperbole. The other claim re: Hamilton is too modest to be a hyperbole...had she said something like "Hamilton is so good it cures cancer", "Hamilton is the only musical that doesn't make me want to riddle up and die in the theatre" etc. etc. - they are hyperboles. She was serious (and ignorant) when she said Hamilton is the only good musical in her lifetime.
The entire quote is something like: "This is the best....it's the only good one in my lifetime".
#71Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/9/16 at 6:42pm
Sure she was serious. She meant what she said. For the third time, it's only her opinion. Some of you in this thread should let go of those pearls. It's not at all important in the scheme of things, really.
#72Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/9/16 at 6:49pm
@qolbinau "it's the only good one."
what does that sound like to you? to me it is an opinion. opinions cannot be right or wrong, and a person cannot not "know what [they are] talking about" when all they are doing is expressing an opinion.
People form opinions without immersing themselves in things they don't like all the time. Occasionally (not often enough, sadly) I beg off seeing a show I know is going to be awful. Usually I go anyway and in the last quarter century I can fairly say that my instinct was wrong about a handful of times.
And my instinct tells me you still are not listening...
#73Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/9/16 at 7:07pm
I am listening and responding. We've already discussed (and I have acknowledged) that her subjective experience watching the show cannot be 'wrong'. The fact that she has only apparently enjoyed Hamilton is necessarily true. However, when giving an appraisal or evaluation about something, of course some opinions can be less informed than others.
If I were to say "in my opinion" Broadwayworld is the only good forum on the internet, just because it is 'my opinion' does not mean it is well-informed unless I actually had some experience using other forums (the exact amount necessary to be 'informed' is a whole other discussion). What we do know is that Fran Lebowitz has not had much experience watching musicals, hence being ill-informed.
As I have said before, an opinion she can express without being controversial would be: "Hamilton is the only musical I enjoyed". There is no way anyone can argue with that - it's true! But her claim is that Hamilton is the best musical in her lifetime. You don't get a free pass on that because it's an 'opinion'.
#74Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/9/16 at 7:40pm
You can discredit her opinion-we all discredit opinions all the time-and you can do so because you question how informed she is. (That, too, by the way, is a part of her hyperbolic style. she is probably better informed about musicals than 99.99 % of the population.)
I do acknowledge now that you have been listening some. Thanks for that.
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