How Do You Feel About Caroline Thibodeaux?

Listening to CAROLINE, OR CHANGE I keep wondering how this show didn't get more recognition during its original run (it's great to see that in London it got the accolades it deserved on Broadway).
One of the main reasons I can think of is that the main character, Caroline Thibodeaux is not exactly likable in the most accessible way. She's bitter, mean, and incredibly sad. Though she loves Noah she still acts rather harshly when she is around him ("How come you like me, I'm never nice to you?), she snaps at poor Dotty--one of my favorite characters in the show--because she has a boyfriend and drinks (though she's mostly resentful that Dotty has "changed"), she has a very rough relationship with Rose, and the last straw is when she tells Noah that all Jews go to hell.
I find her to be one of the most complex, exciting, and powerful characters in musical theater, but I can't help but think that the fact Kushner and Tesori put a woman who is somewhat difficult to like at the center of their show hurt its chances of commercial/critical success. I was wondering how do the people who have seen the show or listened to the cast recording feel about this particular character?

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She can iron my shorts anytime.
What a deep well written emotional confusing character.

There is something about this show that has touched from the first time that heard it and I had oppertunity to see it 3 times while it was in Philly. I think that the show takes less is more to an extreme that is hardly ever seen in theater, because the show is basically about a $20 bill, yet it is so deep and so complex that just leaves me with chills.

Oh, I agree that Caroline is right up there with Momma Rose. I don't mean that she is the reason the show failed but that perhaps audiences were not ready to flock see a show where the authors never spoon-fed the emotional woes of Caroline, she is not likable from the get-go, as an audience member I believe you have to come to understand her and during "Lot's Wife" you truly realize what this woman's torment is like. I think Tesori and Kushner's work in this show is brilliant.
I love Caroline as well but the way she treats Dotty upsets me though it makes her character all the more interesting. Dotty has basically done all Caroline wishes she could do. When Caroline tells Dotty that she can't quit because then her children would have to "beg for their feed," it's such a heart-breaking moment because she truly can't be a part of this "change" going on. I think Caroline also knows that Emmie admires Dot for going to school and that may offend her.

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I can see where you're coming from, but I can side with her too. She's living in this world that's full of change, and she's static. She doesn't know what to do with it, and she's trying to hold onto tradition. I can see some of my parents' traits in the character. They're deeply rooted in "small-town" traditions, and they don't do well when things are thrown off balance. I'm actually suprised that they didn't have at least one moment in the show where she broke a smile, or something, but I think the fact that she gives Noah a cigarette sort of shows her longing to have someone around.

I think that's true, and like you said, she is a hero. She stands firm for what she believes and doesn't falter. There is something to be said for that.

Caroline is emotionally complex, and is not an "instantly likable" character, and I know what you're getting at, Ray. The same could be said of Little Edie Beale in Grey Gardens... and look what happened to that show, too.

I wonder what would happen if "Carousel" opened today. Aside from the music, the subject matter and the main character of Billy would turn people completely off. I don't think it would be the smash hit that it was in the '40s.

I think it would draw Caroline or Grey Gardens-sized audiences, but not be a "blockbuster" classic adored by all.

Audiences were more mature back then, and able to deal with adult emotions, and complex human issues. They didn't need everything instantly accessible or "easy to swallow." Pal Joey would be another show that I think would turn people off, if it wasn't already branded as a "classic." If it opened fresh today, people would think he was a huge jerk and a user... and it would affect the popularity of the show, rather than having audiences flock to it, to find out what makes somebody like that "tick."

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Also, the audience is really never given the emotional truth from Caroline until Lot's Wife all the way in the second act, which can turn some people off.

I think there are two things that really contributed to the downfall of the show here:
1) As best12 pointed out, audience aren't *that* mature anymore. They want spectacle, not substance.

2) Look at the season it opened. It was up against "Boy From Oz," "Avenue Q" and "Wicked." It didn't stand a chance. A season later, it might have faired quite nicely.

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While looking at shows to see on my trip to NYC, I had been following Caroline off Broadway. I was wanting to see some Off-Broadway stuff but it was transferring to Broadway and I decided I really wanted to see it based on its success off-Broadway. I attended a Wednesday matinee. After reading a lot about the show and its off-Broadway reviews, I was interested in the 1st act and how it ended. At intermission outside of the theatre, I struck up a conversation with a man who was enjoying it but was feeling that the 1st act didn't really take him anywhere but he wanted to see what the 2nd act had to offer. I told him we were being set up for the second act and, from what I read, the second act would bring it all together. I knew about the second act and I knew about "Lot's Wife" (But had not heard it). The entire show moved me. My mother, to a point, WAS Caroline. Not as angry. She cleaned homes for a living. I used to go with her to the homes and would meet, and sometimes, befriend the kids that lived in these homes. And the radio was always on. Always. One of the homes she cleaned was that of a doctor and his family. She had been working for him since before I was born. He delivered me into this world. all of these things went through my mind as I was sitting there watching the show. And then came "Lot's Wife". I was pretty much devastated. I have never cried in a theatre like I cried when she took center stage and delivered that song. it hit home. It seemed to say everything that I realized must have been going through my mother's mind back in the 60's. There were a lot of Caroline's in the 60' and even the 70's. I watched as my mother always wanted the best for me and would do what she could to give it to me. Going to school or trying to find a better job just wasn't in the cards because she was doing what she knew how to do and, like Caroline, maybe didn't want to do it all of her life but she was also comfortable doing it. And was a bit afraid of change. And then came "Salty Teardrops", which kept the tears coming. I totally understood the lines that "there is no underground. there is only under water". it signified, for me at least, that Caroline was drowning. Not able to come to the surface and "save" herself. Also witnessing Anika Noni Rose sing "I hate the Bus" was thrilling. And I was excited about seeing Marva Hicks and Ramona Keller (Who I had seen in the Premiere of Brooklyn here in Denver)

I have not been as moved in a theatre as I was that afternoon at the O'Neil. After the show I met up with the man I met at intermission as we had decided to go for a drink after the show. When he found me in the crowd I was pretty much shaking and he asked me what I thought about the show. I just looked at him and said, "I think we just saw a masterpiece". We then went to a bar called Therapy (!) and sat and talked about the show. I was told that at a performance a well dressed black woman made the comment that she didn't understand how this show was supposed to move her or how she was to be able to identify with it. Sadly, a lot of "upper class" black people may not. It didn't happen to them and a lot of them don't want to "confront" how it was for those less fortunate then them. It wasn't the "feel good" musical of the year, for sure. (And I think that is part of the reason it failed on Broadway. I really feel it would have lasted longer downtown) But it was an accurate "snapshot" of the time. And you did feel sad for her at the end. But on the other hand, again, she did what she could and knew how to do. I had planned to see it in the fall when I had planned a return trip to NYC, but sadly, the show closed before I got there. I would give anything to see this show again. I read here somewhere a few years ago that HBO had filmed it but didn't know what they were going to do with it. I hope they air it or put it out on DVD. That is probably wishful thinking. I have e-mailed them about it (No response) and have suggested that it be done here at our regional theatre. If I never see this show again, I still have that Wednesday afternoon to remember. Just my thoughts.

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Updated On: 8/12/07 at 12:25 PM

uncageg---thanks for sharing that post.

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I know a lot of people didn't like the show because they thought Caroline was too grouchy. I don't think they really understood the show, though.


It's one of my favourite musicals ever. It was absolutely amazing here in London. I never understand, though, how people can find the Jews going to hell thing so funny, like Weez says above...

I feel exactly the same, uncageg. And yet each time I saw it people laughed and laughed.
One time I saw the show there was a horrible school group up in the circle. They did not stop laughing at the line (raucously and rudely) for over a minute - the young actor playing Noah was clearly shaken in the next scene, and forgot his American accent momentarily.
I swear when she sang Lot's Wife, Tonya directed the line "spoke my hate to a child" up to those kids.

Updated On: 8/12/07 at 02:11 PM