How Do You Feel About Caroline Thibodeaux?- Page 2

[MTVMANN]

Posted: 8/12/07 at 2:28pm

I find her interesting because when you know something is a social change and injustice, set in the 1960's in the south, you think that the Black Woman is going to be the victim and the one to inspire the change.
But with Caroline it's the opposite, she's the one who needs to change. I didn't realize this until May of this year when I saw a regional production of the show.

[ray-andallthatjazz86]

Posted: 8/12/07 at 4:27pm

Wow, all these posts are really interesting. Glad I'm not alone in my deep admiration for the show, and particularly Caroline.
Uncageg, that post gave me chills, thanks for sharing it with us (and I love Therapy).
I agree with what Rentboy said in that many ways Caroline is a hero. She may not be going to school at night (like Dotty) or fighting for civil rights (like Emmie) but she certainly stands strong in the face of adversity, she has survived a terrible marriage (standing up to her husband), her son has gone off to war, and she keeps working every day "underwater" so her three kids can have food and a roof to live under.
What I enjoy about Caroline (but what I think turned audiences off) is that Kushner and Tesori NEVER romanticize her or her relationships. Her last words with Dot are "We're through," she doesn't have an "awww" moment with any of her children, we know she loves them like no one else will but there isn't any cutesy mother-children scene, and at the end she even tells Noah that they'll never be friends. I think this makes her incredibly admirable.
I can't believe people laughed when Pinkins delivered the "that's where Jews go when they die" line, I find it to be such a harsh line and such an uncomfortable moment because of what Noah has just told her about "Negroes."

[kellybean2]

Posted: 8/12/07 at 4:31pm

best12bars, she certainly comes off as "weird" and much less likable on the doc. But the Little Edie drawn onstage in the second act comes off as very likable and amusing. She was played for laughs, and she got them every time I saw the show.

[neddyfrank2]

Posted: 8/12/07 at 5:18pm

What I really wonder is why in London they would laugh at that line. Does it have something to do with their culture?

Maybe it doesn't hit as hard home for them because it takes place in America?

[Weez]

Posted: 8/12/07 at 5:24pm

Maybe we're laughing because it came across as "messing with a child's mind", and I'm all for messing with people's minds.That line came across to me as an audience member as "Noah is being especially obnoxious right now, so I'm going to mess with his mind". NOT as "HAHA I HATE JEWS LOL!". :P

Maybe it's just another example of how American audiences and British audiences can receive things differently. *shrugs*

Updated On: 8/12/07 at 05:24 PM

[neddyfrank2]

Posted: 8/12/07 at 5:26pm

I really wonder why it came across that was in London but not in the states. Maybe her delivery changed?

[Weez]

Posted: 8/12/07 at 5:54pm

Maybe it's just the differences in sense of humour. As far as I understand it, there is no American equivalent for the term "taking the piss", and my own posting experiences here show that you guys just aren't *quite* as down with sarcasm as we are. It could be that Tonya was playing it as quite serious and harsh, but we saw her dry expression, combined it with the thought "no one would say that and *mean* it to a kid", and interpreted it as deadpan.

[ray-andallthatjazz86]

Posted: 8/12/07 at 5:58pm

I think she truly says it to hurt him, not to mess with his head. He has just told her there's a bomb specifically created to kill all "Negroes" and that he hopes the President drops his bomb on her, this combined with the fact Caroline realizes she won't be able to keep the $20 bill definitely instill her to tell this to Noah. Her description of hell is very harsh and then saying that all Jews end there...that's just enough to have a quiet theatre with stunned faces, not sure if laughs is what they were going for. Caroline even admits she "spoke her hate to a child" so I really don't think there was sarcasm involved. Just my opinion though.

[luvcaroline]

Posted: 8/12/07 at 6:04pm

Uncageg, your post was very moving. I can't think of a better endorsement of this incredible piece of work. Thank you for taking the time to share your story. I also was very moved by this show when I saw it on Broadway, and again with the OBC in L.A. I think that the fact that the character of Caroline was so complex and deep just increased the empathy that I felt for her (not to mention Ms. Pinkins' amazing portrayal, probably the greatest live performance I have witnessed on any stage). I agree that this is a masterpiece and I regret that more people did not get to experience it.

[uncageg]

Posted: 8/12/07 at 7:31pm

After my post I realize that I forget to include that my mother was also a single mother. My father paseed when I was 2.

To address the "Difference in senses of humor", Weez, I really don't see any humor in the line about Jews. Noah said things to her that made her mad and she said what she said in anger. She even confesses to what made her do it. She wasn't "messing with his mind" she was trying to hurt him. To get back at him for what he said. There was no "messing with his mind" as he knew EXACTLY what he was saying to her. When he started in on the bomb that was "Special made to kill all negros" a part of him came out that she had never seen. He was out to hurt her. One of the most serious parts of the show. I feel sad for anybody who found that to be funny. Black, White or English, that scene spoke, very seriously, for itself.

[joshy]

Posted: 8/12/07 at 8:33pm

Wow, Weez, that may be how you saw the line but I'm going to have to disagree (which I rarely do with you!)...
I found nothing humorous in that line - all I could think of was how Noah was believing his mother to be in hell right at that moment. Therefore, no laughs from me...

[neddyfrank2]

Posted: 8/12/07 at 8:44pm

I had the EXACT opposite reaction to a laugh. I don't know if it is because I am Jewish or what, but I was angry, hurt, uncomfortable, sad, and mad. The last thing I could imagine doing is laughing at that line. There is NOTHING funny about it in my opinion.

[sidjones09]

Posted: 8/12/07 at 10:40pm

"She's living in this world that's full of change, and she's static. She doesn't know what to do with it."

Great explanation RentBoy.

One of the most powerful pieces of theatre I've seen in years. Caroline is a tough character to grasp, which is why I love her so much. But for me there are two small chunks of the book that sum her up to me:

CAROLINE: My madness rise up in a fury so wild and I let myself go. Spoke my hate to a child. Pennies done that. PENNIES DONE THAT. Pocket change. Pocket change change me, can't afford loose change, can't afford change."

and

NOAH: And sharing cigarettes? Do you miss sharing a cigarette?

CAROLINE: You bet I do, Noah. You bet.

I think that line to Noah is the closest thing you get to a smile from Caroline. That's all the affection she is capable of displaying to anyone anymore. It's so deeply buried. It's heartbreaking.

UnCage,

Thank You, Thank You, Thank You for sharing that story. It's stories like those that remind me of the power of GREAT theatre.

[uncageg]

Posted: 8/12/07 at 11:14pm

Caroline was the first Broadway show I had seen since 1989 (Phantom). I moved to Denver in 1991 and became active at the Denver Center Theatre Company (Part of the DCPA where "Mermaid" is running currently) I was extremely excited just to walk back into a Broadway theatre after so long. Wasn't expecting such a moving afternoon! But it just uplifted me to see such a quality show and just got me more excited about seeing the rest of the shows I had planned. And made me promise myself that I would get to NYC twice a year to take in as much theatre as possible. I now balance between off-Broadway shows and Broadway shows.

One of my thoughts about the show was that they could have had her "smile" during the opening to the second act when she was singing about her past. Just to show that there was some light in her life even though it was in the past. Although her marriage did not end well.

[Roninjoey]

Posted: 8/13/07 at 1:09am

I don't think we're meant to look at Caroline and say "Are we supposed to like her?" I think we're supposed to have a more complicated reaction than that, safely removed from her in our plush audience seat.

Tonya Pinkins made her so human, and gave a truly astonishing performance. Caroline Thibodeaux is the sort of person you'd stay far away from in real life, yet in all her complexity you by turns admire her, are infuriated by her... she must be one of the most astonishing characters ever written for the musical theater, and the authors achieved a kind of complexity with her that you usually only get in books.

There aren't many shows where you never have any idea where the journey is going, where every moment is spontaneous and suprising. I think that's why Caroline, or Change failed on Broadway. People just couldn't keep up with it. I remember my own experience vacillating between "What is this?!" and "Ooooh..." and ultimately being incredibly moved by it.

[sweetiedarlinmia]

Posted: 8/13/07 at 11:11am

If I were in Caroline's shoes, I can't say I would have too much to happy, or even content, about. I mean, RentBoy said it well. It's hard for her to even try to have hopes and dreams when she's faced with the reality of very little money, bills to pay, kids to feed, living in the south during the civil rights movement. She's sacrificing herself in every way for her kids. It's not easy to do. For some people, its not easy or even possible to see a silver lining. Hell, you go through what she's going through and try not to be mad. And then to know that there is nothing you can truly do to change it, that pisses you off even more. To put it simply, Caroline is a REAL person. Thankfully, this show didn't try to sugarcoat her life. It didn't give you some hokey number where Caroline tries to pretend like it's ok or it'll get better soon. Remember, this is a woman who has asked God to "Murder me", kill everything within her so she get through the day doing whatever is necessary to provide for her kids. You have to be at the end of personal hope to ask God to do that so that you can see your motherly hopes and dreams come to be. I didn't care whether or not I liked Caroline, I cared that I could understand her anger, her fear, her frustration and her love. (I will be continually pissed that Tonya Pinkins didn't win that Tony.)

Without a doubt, this show is one of the most complex and honest shows I'll ever see. It's a show you learn more about each time you listen to it/see it.

Updated On: 8/13/07 at 11:11 AM

[uncageg]

Posted: 8/13/07 at 12:45pm

I too will be upset that she didn't win the Tony and that the show didn't win for Best Musical. I will confess that I didn't see Avenue Q (Really had and have to desire) and Taboo had closed by the time I got to New York. I only saw Caroline and Wicked that year. But we all know about that season. Interestingly enough, Show Business: The Road to Broadway just opened here in Denver for a week and I am seeing it this Thursday. Can't wait. I will hopefully get a glimpse of Caroline on stage again.

[luvcaroline]

Posted: 8/13/07 at 2:35pm

"I didn't care whether or not I liked Caroline, I cared that I could understand her anger, her fear, her frustration and her love."

Wow, I can't think of a better answer to the O.P.'s original question. Very well put, sweetiedarlinmia.

Thanks to the O.P. for starting this very thoughtful thread. I'm really enjoying hearing others' thoughts about my favorite musical.

[uncageg]

Posted: 8/14/07 at 12:10am

For anyone who has not seen it, here is a good video interview from the American Theatre Wing site with

Hope Clarke - Choreographer
Veanne Cox - Actor
Tony Kushner - Book and Lyrics
Tonya Pinkins - Actor
Jeanine Tesori - Composer
Howard Sherman - Moderator
Sondra Gilman - Host
Douglas Leeds - Host

I saw this either right before I saw Caroline or right after. (Can't remember!) But it is good. Enjoy if you have not seen it.

http://www.americantheatrewing.org/seminars/detail/caroline_or_change_04_04

[ray-andallthatjazz86]

Posted: 8/14/07 at 12:18am

Thanks so much for the video, Uncageg.

I didn't care whether or not I liked Caroline, I cared that I could understand her anger, her fear, her frustration and her love. (I will be continually pissed that Tonya Pinkins didn't win that Tony.)
You're completely right both about Caroline and about Pinkins not winning the Tony. How she lost, I won't even understand, and how she lost to Idina Menzel is well...let's not go there.

[uncageg]

Posted: 8/14/07 at 12:27am

Let's go there!

The people I saw Wicked with thought that Menzel deserved the Tony. I enjoyed her performance but liked Chenoweth better. If Pinkins were to lose the Tony (Which she did), I wanted Cheno to get it. But that Award should have been Ms Pinkins'. How Avenue Q won best score over Caroline still has me scratching my head. But, as we know, that was the season that the voters "Voted their heart".

And you are welcome for the video. I need to watch it again.

Updated On: 8/14/07 at 12:27 AM

[Caroline-Q-or-TBoo]

Posted: 8/14/07 at 12:52am

I'm watching the video...

SIGH

I miss miss miss miss miss this show so much!

i'm so glad there's a local production opening in January!

[iluvtheatertrash]

Posted: 8/14/07 at 12:54am

While Caroline is far from an angelic human being, she is still an extremely tragic heroine and, IMO, very likeable.

Then again, I like Medea, too.

[uncageg]

Posted: 8/14/07 at 1:10am

Why did I just get a sick vision of Tyler Perry as a Greek mythological figure?

But seriously....We know that the show is semi-autobiographical. Kushner's parents played the same intruments Noah's do/did. And I would suspect Caroline is based on a or the maid in his home as a child. I wonder how much more is pulled from his real life childhood. I suspect Emmie may have been based on a real person but a lot of her story is something that he came up with for COC.

Updated On: 8/14/07 at 01:10 AM

[ray-andallthatjazz86]

Posted: 8/14/07 at 2:24am

I remember the now-MIA MargoChanning mentioned that Kushner took the lady he based Caroline off to see the show, so she was definitely based on a real live figure and I wonder if the premise of Noah leaving change in his pocket and Stuart marrying a friend from New York are all based in Kushner's own childhood or not.
I think when referring to Caroline it's interesting to add that Kushner was commissioned to write an opera and that's how the show came about, when the opera fell through, it was suggested that it became a musical (I'm not sure if it was George C. Wolfe who suggested it though Wolfe is entirely responsible for Pinkins casting). So in many ways Caroline is a character of operatic nature, a larger-than-life figure entrapped in the body of a woman who spends her life "trapped 'tween the basement and the muddy brown sea." I have a soundboard of the Off-Broadway show and it's interesting how different Pinkins portrayal was Off-Broadway as compared to the Broadway recording. She was definitely angrier and more over-the-top on Broadway which I like a lot better.
To be honest, out of all the actresses nominated that season Menzel deserved the Tony the least, IMO. D'Abruzzo managed to give a fine hilarious yet touching portrayal all using a puppet, Chenoweth added layers to Glinda where there were very little, Donna Murphy gave the star turn of the season in WONDERFUL TOWN, and Tonya Pinkins rendition of "Lot's Wife" alone should have earned her the Tony and every other possible accolade she was eligible for.
I don't think any of the other nominated ladies came close to doing anything remotely as brilliant as what Tonya Pinkins did with Caroline, her "Lot's Wife" NEVER fails to give me chills. I'm just glad no injustices were made in the Featured Acting category (well,except for no nomination to either Chandra Wilson or Veanne Cox) and Anika Noni Rose took home her well-deserved Tony. Her "I Hate the Bus" is breath-taking.