I really hope Angela Lansbury was misquoted — Page 2

Focusing on and shaming a woman who is 92 years old and spent the first part of her life as a dress up doll in the old Hollywood system is completely off point (I believe). Women have been shaped by this world that we've created. Her advice may seems sensible and pragmatic...but it's cause we've allowed a world that is beyond f*cked up.

Also...I work at a very large, world-wide law firm. There are many instances of office romances leading to marriage. There are many work places where that isn't allowed. But here, it is. There is, for want of a better phrase, a chain of command in how unwanted sexual advances are reported. No one here is fired if they make a romantic overture that was a misread or something that was unwanted. Either the woman handles it herself, or takes the issue to a superior who will address it with the other party. In most cases, that's where it ends. No one is fired for something like that, let alone subject to the legal system. This is not the way these things work (at least in major corporations).

Dollypop said: "Good God, there's a lot of flesh showing these days! I'm not saying you should dress like a nun, but a touch of modesty would be in order when you're in a church.

If you're gonna dress that revealingly in church, you're asking for trouble at the reception, where the booze runs freely."

No. This is wrong. People should be able to wear anything they want - or nothing at all - without being assaulted by anyone (including the police). I absolutely believe this to be true.

I thought that the most interesting development today came from the mouth of Jane Curtin:

Jane Curtin, a comedian who is a friend and former colleague of Mr. Franken’s, compared the current atmosphere to McCarthyism. “It’s just like the red menace,” she said in an interview with The Times. “You don’t know who’s going to be next.”

What! McCarthyism!

McCarthyism is defined in the dictionary as the use of tactics involving personal attacks on individuals by means of widely publicized indiscriminate allegations especially on the basis of unsubstantiated charges, resulting in the defamation of character or reputation through such tactics.

Well men are losing their jobs, careers and reputations due to the allegations of often anonymous women. The accusations by the women are not made under oath where they might be charged with perjury if not telling the truth. And the men have no better chance of defending themselves than did French Noblemen during the Reign of Terror.

I really care nothing for these men as individuals, and most are probably guilty of the offense. But I was surprised that an august organization such as CBS would have so little regard for the rights of the accused. Now the Bill of Rights applies to state and federal criminal prosecutions, and certainly not to CBS. Yet I would have expected them to have some regard for the principles of the Sixth Amendment with which Madison meant to protect the innocent.

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

SonofRobbieJ said: "Focusing on and shaming a woman who is 92 years old and spent the first part of her life as a dress up doll in the old Hollywood system is completely off point (I believe). Women have been shaped by this world that we've created. Her advice may seems sensible and pragmatic...but it's cause we've allowed a world that is beyond f*cked up.

Also...I work at a very large, world-wide law firm. There are many instances of office romances leading to marriage. There are many work places where that isn't allowed. But here, it is. There is, for want of a better phrase, a chain of command in how unwanted sexual advances are reported. No one here is fired if they make a romantic overture that was a misread or something that was unwanted. Either the woman handles it herself, or takes the issue to a superior who will address it with the other party. In most cases, that's where it ends. No one is fired for something like that, let alone subject to the legal system. This is not the way these things work (at least in major corporations)."

I'm sure that's true in most cases and thank you for spelling it out. In large corporations, reporting the harassment/assault is often the BEST thing a victim can do because the existence of a record protects that victims from future recriminations. Nonetheless, I have worked for a senior partner (this was in LA) who invited young men to come to his office and do push-ups. It's hard to know exactly what a senior associate will do when he or she has eight years and thousands upon thousands of hours invested at a firm, yet can't become a partner without a recommendation from her team leader.

ErikJ972 said: ""

xMisconception

Women entice men to sexually assault them by dressing a certain way or by leading them on.

?Truth

People may experience sexual assault no matter what they are wearing or how they were acting; what the survivor was wearing in no way makes them responsible for the assault. No person deserves to be assaulted, asks to be assaulted or wants to be assaulted. This misconception again shows the extent to which sexual assault is sexualized in our society. Sexual assault does not occur because of uncontrollable sexual desire. People commit sexual assault because they feel entitled to other people’s bodies and disregard other people’s right to consent. Perpetrators often use the excuse of how the survivor dressed or acted as way to avoid taking responsibility for their own criminal sexual behavior. But perpetrators are responsible for their own desires and actions."

Sexual Assault Misconceptions

https://sapac.umich.edu/article/52"

Eric, I don't think Angela Lansbury or anyone in this thread has said otherwise. I know I'm not talking about rape or sexual assault, just your garden-variety hostile work environment claim. But it's an odd culture we have that argues women should spend small fortunes on their appearance and also that their appearance has no impact on others.

"I doubt most of us could tell you the difference between "harassment" and "assault", much less when flirting becomes a tort."

Gaveston you're a lyricist.

All these apologists (or minimizers) of male sexual misbehavior go a long way towards explaining the president we currently have.

Updated On: 11/30/17 at 08:03 AM

Miles2Go2 said: "All these apologists (or minimizers) of male sexual misbehavior go a long way towards explaining the president we currevtjy have."

I know you may not be responding to me, but since your post is right below mine and that conversation went in sort of a weird direction, I want to make it clear that I'm not one of those people. My original post was in agreement with others who believe women should be able to wear whatever they want without getting assaulted or harassed.

yankeefan7 said: " It seems that you are still saying women are part of the problem because of the way they dress."

No, they are not "part of the problem".

Are black boys who challenge police part of the problem? No, but the ones who cooperate with the police are the ones still alive.

Are kids who talk to strangers part of the problem? No, but the one's who avoid strangers are still home with their parents unharmed.

The point being, don't wait for someone to ride up on a white horse and change the world. Take responsibility for your own safety and do what you have to do to get through the day and come home safe at night.

Updated On: 11/30/17 at 02:16 PM

"Except for all those kids who are abducted by people they know, including family members. So what did those kids do wrong that you are going to blame them for?"

Exactly. And the same is true of harassment/assault/rape victims. Many many many many women are sexually harassed, assaulted, or raped without having ever dressed revealingly, without ever having flirted, without ever having tried to look beautiful, without ever having encouraged the behaviour in any way at all with their predators.

And it is relentless. It starts in childhood/early teen years (e.g. truck drivers honking horns and yelling lewd x-rated threats to girls out running for their high school cross-country team practice while wearing loose sweats), continues into middle age and beyond, happens to people wearing no makeup and baggy clothes, happens to people considered conventionally ugly as well as those considered conventionally beautiful. It happens repeatedly to asexual people who not only never flirted with their harassers but literally never flirted with anyone in their entire life, never wore make-up, never wore miniskirts, never wore low-cut tops to any event ever.

If they try to ignore an advance on the street or politely say 'no thanks' and keep walking, men regularly grab women's arms and yank them back, or stand in front of them to block their paths and keep moving left-and-right menacingly when she tries to get around them, or throw things at her and hit her with them: physically assaulting those who say no. Sometimes full-on raping them. It happens because there is an evil, pervasive, inaccurate-but-hard-to-get-rid-of sense of entitlement that many men feel towards women's bodies, from publicly policing women's appearances (yelling unsolicited comments and declaring either their approval or disapproval of the appearance when neither is wanted or justifable) to physically attacking women if they don't agree willingly to let a random man take possession of their bodies.

In the workplace, you could do everything right - report it through the proper channels, and still have it ignored, as in the Gloucester theatre case or in the CBC case in Canada. It is all so g**d**mn relentless, and having anyone say that the recipients of all the harassment share some of the blame is so f***king exhausting and infuriating. People who do everything 'by the book' still have to deal with tons and tons of crap. So instead of trying to spot some examples of survivors who didn't do everything by the book, teaching all humans never to be predators would be much more effective.

Maybe this current media attention will help with that, as it doesn't seem to have done much in the past, when reports were infrequent enough that the implicated places could try to ignore them. Besides which, it already been pointed out by others that the "book" itself is sexist and wrong in its own right if it includes rules on how to dress, etc. beyond what is already deemed acceptable in public or in the specific workplaces involved.

Updated On: 11/30/17 at 03:34 PM

Well said, Adam.

qolbinau said: "I mean, both Adam’s and CallMeAl’s posts will be true depending on the specific case. I assume Lansbury was tapping into CallMeAl’s reasoning..."

Exactly. Similarly, I don't believe a young woman who passes out drunk at a frat house "invites" rape; but I also don't think we do her any favor by telling her the government can or will protect her if she engages in that sort of high risk behavior.

And this has been a civil discussion without blaming any of the accusers or excusing any of their abusers--civil with the exception of a few posters who apparently can't accept the existence of cause-and-effect in the real world.