Inside Hairspray-It's FANTASTIC!!!- Page 6

[Loge]

Posted: 3/11/05 at 4:45pm

Ok, please provide me with proof that shills exist. I'm sorry, but the power of word (coming out of the theater) and the power of the critics is a lot more powerful than the little people here on this board. How many people are even active on this board? Not enough to make one bit of difference at the box office.

Marc is right in that respect - any time anyone likes a show (mostly one that isn't doing well) they are deemed a shill. Whatever. Shows are not going to pay people to come here and try to talk up their product. They have more budget issues to worry about. You are naive for thinking so.

So, I guess everyone in this thread who's rushed to the support of Hairspray receives a monthy fee from Marc. Marc, how do I get in on that action?

Everyone likes different things, lord knows I LOVED The Scarlet Pimpernel and Dance of the Vampires (eventhough TDV was a lot better), but just because I admit it doesn't mean I'm a shill.

Updated On: 3/11/05 at 04:45 PM

[BSoBW2]

Posted: 3/11/05 at 4:48pm

Some extra money WOULD be nice...

Posted: 3/11/05 at 4:51pm

i dont mind being called a shill.

[munkustrap178]

Posted: 3/11/05 at 4:51pm

While I understand both sides, I know what Namo is talking about. People like Tiny Toon (who was even featured in the Times about seeing BROOKLYN so many times) comes online and just plugs the show. While "rampant fan" or something is a more appropriate term, I agree in taht no one is actually getting paid to promote a show on this board. And when Namo said shill, I don't think he implied that money was involved. Atleast for me, when I think of a SHILL, I do'nt think of moeny, I think of someone who just really loves a show and shamelessly plugs it.

[Loge]

Posted: 3/11/05 at 4:53pm

Well, I've only seen shill being termed to mean someone who is with the show, as in being supported by the show to come on here and rant and rave about it.

Yes Tiny-Toon is annoying in his overblown support of Brooklyn, but that's fine. There are things I love and can't talk about enough (Mozart, Chess, Berlin, etc). So Tiny-Toon is an enthusiastic supporter of the show. But I think of shill as someone being paid by the show, and I doubt anyone is.

Updated On: 3/11/05 at 04:53 PM

[Joshua488]

Posted: 3/11/05 at 4:54pm

OFF TOPIC:

munkustrap178- Did you get my PM?

[Rose_MacShane]

Posted: 3/11/05 at 4:56pm

I've quit calling people shills ever since I was called one at Ain't It Cool News for posting a positive review of POTO after a preview screening. At least when people get called shills here, they aren't cussed out...****ing AICN readers...

[munkustrap178]

Posted: 3/11/05 at 4:57pm

Yes, I'm trying to think about what to say....nothing really helpful comes to mind.

[whaddyathink]

Posted: 3/11/05 at 4:57pm

Wow. What an interesting thread. As a frequent reader of these boards, I sometimes get a chuckle at the "reviews" of shows where the critical arguments mainly are a thinly-disguised personal attack of the reviewer's involvement with the show, actors, management, producers, composers, ushers, box office personnel, cab driver, plastic surgeon, psycotherapist, etc...

Yes, it's unfortunate that garbage such as the one posted by NCB may influence someone's decision to actually see HAIRSPRAY.

Mr. Shaiman has the right to defend a personal attack on his show especially when the review turned into a bitter tirade about the "inside" workings of the musical.

I appreciate the time and space for allowing me to express my views. I now return you to your regularly scheduled program already in progress.....

John F.
------
As part of BWW full disclosure policy, JF has no financial stake in any of the shows mentioned in the above post. He has, however, seen HAIRSPRAY once in Chicago on Dec 31, 2003. He enjoyed it thoroughly. He also enjoys writing in the 3rd person...

[Joshua488]

Posted: 3/11/05 at 5:01pm

munkustrap178- That doesn't look like a good sign to me.

[Loge]

Posted: 3/11/05 at 5:02pm

Please, I highly doubt any comments on here are going to turn someone away from seeing Hairspray. When I saw it I seriously think I was the only one in the house not going crazy. Afterwards, I was the only one not gushing about how wonderful it was afterwards. It was an event performance, so I was with a very large group. I didn't hear one person say anything other than "I loved it." Personally, I didn't love it, but I didn't like AIDA or The Lion King either!

I admit that the person's tirade was ridiculous, but if it were about any number of other shows, people probably would have agreed. I still think it's lame to act like you're in the know and not name yourself. Still, I think March should have just ignored it.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 3/11/05 at 5:03pm

if anybody knows from shaiman-ating, it's me, i started the thread after all, lo those many moons ago lampooning in a gentle loving way that very act. however, like namo said, perteptually.unknown.wannabe called out mr. big time composer by specifically mentioning him and alleging his blessing for the diatribe. now it would be lovely if everyone could react with dignity and aplomb when someone kicks their baby and says, "what? he said it's ok to kick it." but it's not gonna happen. personally i thought he was far too reserved in his reply, but then i'm foul tempered by nature.

[Marc Shaiman]

Posted: 3/11/05 at 5:07pm

go Papa, go go GO!!!!

[SueleenGay]

Posted: 3/11/05 at 5:09pm

Papa, are you SURE that isn't Alan Cumming?

[Loge]

Posted: 3/11/05 at 5:11pm

Why would you think it's Alan Cumming? And, I don't like your picture. It scares me!

[SueleenGay]

Posted: 3/11/05 at 5:13pm

Well the tattoo for starters and that flat tummy as well.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 3/11/05 at 5:16pm

i'd show ya the one with her breasts pierced with roses, sueleen, but that might get me in trouble and you know that i am not a troublemaker.

[Loge]

Posted: 3/11/05 at 5:16pm

Please get rid of that Robin Williams picture. I'm going to have nightmares!

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 3/11/05 at 5:19pm

Actually, I AM talking about times when money is involved. As you know, publicists are on the payrolls for Broadway shows. And, hate to break this to you, there are people in publicist offices for all SORTS of things, not just Broadway shows, whose job it is to appear on message boards and online communities and the like to "get people talking" about the product they're getting paid to shill.

It's even got a term, Loge, it's called Viral Marketing. Viral marketing is DIRT cheap, compared to say, taking out even the teeny tiny ad in the NYTimes Theater ABCs display. It's particularly used on the web... and one writer defines the process this way:

What does a virus have to do with marketing? Viral marketing describes any strategy that encourages individuals to pass on a marketing message to others, creating the potential for exponential growth in the message's exposure and influence. Like viruses, such strategies take advantage of rapid multiplication to explode the message to thousands, to millions.

Off the Internet, viral marketing has been referred to as "word-of-mouth," "creating a buzz," "leveraging the media," "network marketing." But on the Internet, for better or worse, it's called "viral marketing."

There are literally HUNDREDS of websites devoted to not just the concept of viral marketing, but also to practictioners. I'm not sure why it's so important for you, Loge, to believe that Viral Marketers wouldn't target websites like this, to shill for shows to an audience of potential theatergoers.

The surest indication of a shill around here USED to be that they appeared out of nowhere, almost always had some sort of number in their screen name, like "Smiles25867," and they chatted up a show in the most obvious manner. Generally, they never posted after the first post, most likely because they had moved on to other sites and never checked back here. SOMETIMES they would come back and swear they weren't shills, and then they were never heard from again. Never had another thing to say about another show ever.

Check out the following link for more information.
Viral Marketing

[Loge]

Posted: 3/11/05 at 5:26pm

While I don't doubt Viral Marketing exists, I think it's a little ridiculous to think that what is said on broadwayworld.com is going to have ANY impact at the box office. Come on! It may have an impact on much larger discussion forums, but not here.

Even if I came on here to shill, say Good Vibrations, and got everyone on here to see Good Vibrations, that wouldn't even fill the theater for one performance. Furthermore, if a show is bad, it is bad, and talking it up isn't going to do a world of good. If I got everyone to see GV, how many people would come out of the theater and tell others to see it? Not many.

I think it's pretty foolish to think shilling on this board would have any impact, just as it's silly to call people a shill. Over at broadway.com (Macho) I was called a shill because I said I really liked the music of Dance of the Vampires. It was ridiculous.

Updated On: 3/11/05 at 05:26 PM

[Caroline-Q-or-TBoo]

Posted: 3/11/05 at 5:28pm

Shaiman- tell Woo to watch out, Aristotle is coming for him!

[JeffG]

Posted: 3/11/05 at 5:36pm

There's an unknown factor when considering viral marketing. Loge - in a closed environment, your theory holds water. However, you have no way of knowing the domino effect a negative or positive post can have. It simply can never truly be measured. You could have 10,000 people read your post and not give a damn. But you could have 1 person take it completely to heart and then with conviction pass that sentiment to someone else - hence the term viral. You know, like the shampoo commercial. They tell two friend, and they tell two friends.

I'm not adding nor subtracting weight to this message board or any other. The full on truth is, you just don't know. Not to mention, that the internet is forever. I often chuckle at the fact that people forget this simple item. Once it's online, the entire world has access, and you simply can never know how and when that might come back to bite you in the ass.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 3/11/05 at 5:36pm

just like no one would ever use message board comments in an ad campaign...oh wait, they did. it's not whether it will or won't have any impact, it's simple cost benefit. it's cheap (like free) and half the folks at serino and spotco and at most general management offices are already reading and posting anyway. i know of a few shows that had people who just surfed the net and reported back to the producers. sounds insane, but it's true.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 3/11/05 at 5:42pm

You just keep repeating your mantra that it would be "silly" and would "not have any impact" Loge. Ya know, MOST people in our culture feel that they are totally immune to advertising. Which is of coure, ridiculous. As a matter of fact, according to market research, those younger than Gen-Xers actually feel that they are so savvy that marketing has a NEGATIVE effect on what they purchase. Which is why viral marketing is so effective on them. Nike uses the "alternative" market to push Converse Chuck Taylors to rebels who don't want to buy corporate sweat shop made Nikes. The fact that Nike owns those sneakers too is never ever mentioned.

By your logic, or Loge-ic, the investing of any money at all to persuade people to make any consumer choices at all is silly and does not have an impact. But you have to look at the scale of the economy. OBVIOUSLY advertising effects people's choices.

Struggling shows with rapidly shrinking advertising budgets have little choice BUT to rely on shills. I suppose they actually believe that if they can get enough butts in the seats (and they shill not just HERE but everywhere theater fans "congregate" on the web, and that's a LOT of places when you factor in chat rooms on internet services, etc), then a certain percentage WILL have something good to say about the show. And even if not, they get the few people whom they manage to motivate to see the show, most of whom bring somebody else with them. It may not be much, but it's more than they would get without it.

A good example of somebody who is what is called an outlier, is somebody who has posted here for a long time. To protect his anonymity, I shall call him Mr. Yxor. Now, I am not suggesting he is a shill, but if a show gets a bad review, you can GUARANTEE that he will eventually get a ticket, announce that he "will make up his own mind" and if the show is dreadful, he reports back that "it wasn't great but it wasn't the worst." If a show is middling, he points out that the critics have too much power and that the show was pretty good, particularly X prop or yyy bit of business.

I'm not saying Mr. Yxor motivates people to go see shows they have no interest in, but in an environment where going against the bad fortunes of a show can sometimes be presented as being a free-thinker or a form of rebellion, why WOULDN'T publicists use under-the-radar marketing techniques to talk up their shows? What's the worst that's gonna happen if it doesn't work? The show, that was going to close anyway, closes.

Updated On: 3/11/05 at 05:42 PM

[Loge]

Posted: 3/11/05 at 5:45pm

Well, that may be true re: surfing the net and reporting back, but I highly doubt a show pays people to come into this crazy little world and try to sell their product.