#51
Posted: 1/28/15 at 11:10pm
I miss acekatherineplumber1 
Joel Grey Comes Out Publicly: 'I'm a Gay Man' — Page 3
#52
Posted: 1/28/15 at 11:20pm
Did I do something wrong? I feel like I'm missing some information?
#53
Posted: 1/28/15 at 11:27pm
Nah kid, we're just pulling your leg.
However, I'm SHOCKED the student theater organizers have cancelled the annual V-Day performance of The Vagina Monologues because of it's oppressive binary gender view.
However, I'm SHOCKED the student theater organizers have cancelled the annual V-Day performance of The Vagina Monologues because of it's oppressive binary gender view.
Twitter @NamoInExile
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#54
Posted: 1/28/15 at 11:29pm
Oh god, that made me crazy.
#55
Posted: 1/29/15 at 12:00am
If The Vagina Monologues are oppressive, I don't want to be part of your revolution.
Twitter @NamoInExile
Instagram none
#56
Posted: 1/29/15 at 2:07am
Wow, this thread is confusing, between the discussion about being PC, and how many genders there are. I have no idea how many genders there are, but I think there are only two sexes. I view someone's sex, at least when nature gets it right, as female if they have two X chromosomes and male if they have an X and a Y. Their chromosomes are supposed to determine their physical characteristics, again, unless nature messes up.
To me, gender is different from sex, because gender involves an individual's belief that nature messed up by giving that individual the chromosomes and physical characteristics of the "opposite sex," or that nature got it right.
I don't really see gender as falling on a continuum, but I do see sexual preference as being on a continuum, with many of us falling close to the far points on the continuum. I identify myself as straight because the circumstances under which I think I would fall for a woman are so circumscribed that they are unlikely to occur.
As far as Joel Grey, to me the best thing about his coming out now is that it implies that he's still interested in sex at 82. As we all age, that's a message we need to hear.
To me, gender is different from sex, because gender involves an individual's belief that nature messed up by giving that individual the chromosomes and physical characteristics of the "opposite sex," or that nature got it right.
I don't really see gender as falling on a continuum, but I do see sexual preference as being on a continuum, with many of us falling close to the far points on the continuum. I identify myself as straight because the circumstances under which I think I would fall for a woman are so circumscribed that they are unlikely to occur.
As far as Joel Grey, to me the best thing about his coming out now is that it implies that he's still interested in sex at 82. As we all age, that's a message we need to hear.
Audrey, the Phantom Phanatic, who nonetheless would rather be Jean Valjean, who knew how to make lemonade out of lemons.
#57
Posted: 1/29/15 at 5:20am
its still sad that we consider this unusual or controversial in this age
#58
Posted: 1/29/15 at 8:20am
Whether Joel Grey thinks about sex or not at age 82 is not really germane to the discussion of his coming out.
Generally when someone comes out as gay, we are speaking of their AFFECTIONAL orientation, regardless of whether they do or don't have sex or think about sex. When I was 10 years old, I simply knew I wanted to hang around with the adorable blond boy in my 4th grade class, not that I wanted to jump in bed with him. Though I wouldn't have understood it at the time (we're speaking pre-Stonewall here), that's what's meant by affectional orientation.
Generally when someone comes out as gay, we are speaking of their AFFECTIONAL orientation, regardless of whether they do or don't have sex or think about sex. When I was 10 years old, I simply knew I wanted to hang around with the adorable blond boy in my 4th grade class, not that I wanted to jump in bed with him. Though I wouldn't have understood it at the time (we're speaking pre-Stonewall here), that's what's meant by affectional orientation.
Updated On: 1/29/15 at 08:20 AM
#59
Posted: 1/29/15 at 8:37am
AHLiebross: Your perception of sex and gender are on the right track, but somewhat outmoded. However, this is neither the time or place to go into details on that. (Though if you wanted to discuss you could message me.)
Also, it doesn't seem to me that Joel coming out necessarily means he still cares about sex at his age. It might mean that, but it struck me that he was merely revealing his romantic orientation. I could be wrong, though, as I have a younger perspective and don't really think about sex at all.
Also, it doesn't seem to me that Joel coming out necessarily means he still cares about sex at his age. It might mean that, but it struck me that he was merely revealing his romantic orientation. I could be wrong, though, as I have a younger perspective and don't really think about sex at all.
#60
Posted: 1/29/15 at 8:47am
"I have a younger perspective and don't really think about sex at all."
Don't think about sex? Youth really is wasted on the young.
Don't think about sex? Youth really is wasted on the young.
#62
Posted: 1/29/15 at 9:18am
Well, that's very different than it being simply a younger perspective...
#63
Posted: 1/29/15 at 11:21am
How did a thread about Joel Grey turn into a discussion about gender? But since it has...I will say that I very much believe (and I imagine a lot of people on this board will agree) that gender is somewhat fluid too. I mean, yes, technically "boys have a penis and girls have a vagina," but I think everyone has qualities in them that are both "masculine" or "feminine" - some obviously so much to the other side that they feel that they are the opposite gender of whatever their "equipment" dictates - hence transgenderism. (I'm not going to pretend to fully understand it, but this is what I have observed in myself and in others.)
If you want to say that there are more than two genders to give some sort of "label" to people who are in the grey area (grey, ha ha! see, I'm somewhat on topic), then okay, fine, although not everything CAN be labeled.
If you want to say that there are more than two genders to give some sort of "label" to people who are in the grey area (grey, ha ha! see, I'm somewhat on topic), then okay, fine, although not everything CAN be labeled.
#64
Posted: 1/29/15 at 12:44pm
There's also the sociological concept of queerness, which is one's actual possession of sociosexually "transgressive" or "non-normative" traits regardless of gender or sexuality. My teacher in grad school explained it as: "Neil Patrick Harris is gay, but sociologically not very queer- he's mainstream Hollywood charm and masculinity without any real threat or transgressions. Fred Armisen is straight but sociologically much more queer than NPH- he is somewhat effeminate, very flamboyant and introduces cross-dressing and gender performance into most of his work."
Whether or not Grey was out as a gay man or not, which is irrelevant, his work as performer and as photographer always had a queer sensibility.
Whether or not Grey was out as a gay man or not, which is irrelevant, his work as performer and as photographer always had a queer sensibility.
#65
Posted: 1/29/15 at 2:58pm
Whether or not Grey was out as a gay man or not, which is irrelevant, his work as [...] photographer always had a queer sensibility.
For example these shots of a few young men whose jeans were riding rather low...
Third one on the right hand side, top row. (Nice shot of some performers in full dress at Pride all the way on the left in the next row down as well.)
For example these shots of a few young men whose jeans were riding rather low...
Third one on the right hand side, top row. (Nice shot of some performers in full dress at Pride all the way on the left in the next row down as well.)
Formerly gvendo2005
Broadway Legend
joined: 5/1/05
Blocked: After Eight, suestorm, david_fick, emlodik, lovebwy, Dave28282, joevitus, BorisTomashevsky, Seb28
Broadway Legend
joined: 5/1/05
Blocked: After Eight, suestorm, david_fick, emlodik, lovebwy, Dave28282, joevitus, BorisTomashevsky, Seb28
#66
Posted: 1/29/15 at 3:43pm
This is like when Rod comes out the closet in Avenue Q.
Listen, I don't take my clothes off for anyone, even if it is "artistic". - JANICE
#67
Posted: 1/29/15 at 3:56pm
While he is relevant, can I just say how awesomely, hideously bad Joel's psychedelic rock-cabaret albums were? They're both out on one cd now, "The Magic of Joel Grey," and they regularly win worst album of all time awards.
I assume it's a piece of quirky performance art, but whether ironic commentary or simple overreach, it's a must-hear, trust me. Truly joyful, confounding stuff, sort of the opposite of Shatner's Rock albums from the same era.
I assume it's a piece of quirky performance art, but whether ironic commentary or simple overreach, it's a must-hear, trust me. Truly joyful, confounding stuff, sort of the opposite of Shatner's Rock albums from the same era.
#68
Posted: 1/29/15 at 5:33pm
I view sexual orientation as a fluid concept more than a "I am this, period and forever." I can't remember a time when I thought to myself "I will fall in love with a man." (I'm a female, by the way). I've actually always been terrified of saying that I am completely heterosexual because what if I meet a woman and I fall in love with her? People are people. I know female friends who are so scared of saying that a woman is attractive or beautiful because they are scared that people will view them as a homosexual. Which goes to show how society still views anything but heterosexuality as "less" and "not normal".
Anyway, I'm glad that he feels comfortable enough to disclose this to people.
Anyway, I'm glad that he feels comfortable enough to disclose this to people.
#69
I’ve gone through several phases with labels. When I began coming out – and this is certainly common among young gay men – I identified first as bisexual, then rejected any label at all to avoid using the word “gay” (“I’m just a dude who likes other dudes!”), then began identifying exclusively as “gay,” and now I’m somewhere around where Mr. Grey stands. I don’t love the word because it doesn’t wholly describe my sexuality. Have I slept with women since coming out? Yes. Since identifying as “gay”? Yes. Would I do it again? Yes. But that’s such a small part of my desires that “bisexual” seems significantly less correct than “gay,” so I stick with “gay,” and only then when pressed.
And even though the issue has been dropped, I’ll add that I understand newintown’s critique of Ms. Grey’s language, though, as others have pointed out, she obviously wasn’t tailoring it to stand up to scrutiny, and I don’t think she should be crucified for it – which, of course, no one here did, anyway.
Posted: 1/29/15 at 5:43pm
I’ve gone through several phases with labels. When I began coming out – and this is certainly common among young gay men – I identified first as bisexual, then rejected any label at all to avoid using the word “gay” (“I’m just a dude who likes other dudes!”), then began identifying exclusively as “gay,” and now I’m somewhere around where Mr. Grey stands. I don’t love the word because it doesn’t wholly describe my sexuality. Have I slept with women since coming out? Yes. Since identifying as “gay”? Yes. Would I do it again? Yes. But that’s such a small part of my desires that “bisexual” seems significantly less correct than “gay,” so I stick with “gay,” and only then when pressed.
And even though the issue has been dropped, I’ll add that I understand newintown’s critique of Ms. Grey’s language, though, as others have pointed out, she obviously wasn’t tailoring it to stand up to scrutiny, and I don’t think she should be crucified for it – which, of course, no one here did, anyway.
CHURCH DOOR TOUCAN GAY MARKETING PUPPIES MUSICAL THEATER STAPLES PERIOD OIL BITCHY SNARK HOLES
#70
Posted: 1/29/15 at 5:48pm
Generally when someone comes out as gay, we are speaking of their AFFECTIONAL orientation, regardless of whether they do or don't have sex or think about sex. When I was 10 years old, I simply knew I wanted to hang around with the adorable blond boy in my 4th grade class, not that I wanted to jump in bed with him. Though I wouldn't have understood it at the time (we're speaking pre-Stonewall here), that's what's meant by affectional orientation.
I've always felt sad that the phrase "affectional orientation" never caught on.
I've always thought the widespread use of that phrase would have solved a lot of the language problems.
I've always felt sad that the phrase "affectional orientation" never caught on.
I've always thought the widespread use of that phrase would have solved a lot of the language problems.
#71
Posted: 1/29/15 at 6:26pm
Most people I know are familiar with the term "romantic orientation," which is just about the same thing. Hopefully it will catch on elsewhere too.
#72
Posted: 1/29/15 at 6:27pm
If who we wanted to hang around with in 4th grade is the indicator, I must be bisexual. I'll be sharing this joyous discovery with my boyfriend later on.
Twitter @NamoInExile
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#73
Posted: 1/29/15 at 7:00pm
Someone in a Tree, I hope it was clear that *I* wasn't speculating as to Grey's sexual practices. I was talking about public perception of human sexuality: I think it's easier (and perceived to be safer) to come out when one is elderly because the public has already relegated one to the "asexual" category. As opposed to celebrities who are in their 20s or 30s.
Namo, I think your generational split is a fair one. Though I admit the "I don't like labels" comment rankles a bit. I don't remember anybody asking me whether I'd like a label; the label was there and I could embrace it or deny it. But I do understanding that the label itself can seem as much a lie as coming out--because NOBODY fits all the stereotypes that attach to the label "gay".
***
To another poster, how can gender NOT be a spectrum? Have we forgotten tomboys and sissies and Mary Kay ladies and bull dykes and man's men and strong, silent types and power bottoms, etc. and so forth?
Namo, I think your generational split is a fair one. Though I admit the "I don't like labels" comment rankles a bit. I don't remember anybody asking me whether I'd like a label; the label was there and I could embrace it or deny it. But I do understanding that the label itself can seem as much a lie as coming out--because NOBODY fits all the stereotypes that attach to the label "gay".
***
To another poster, how can gender NOT be a spectrum? Have we forgotten tomboys and sissies and Mary Kay ladies and bull dykes and man's men and strong, silent types and power bottoms, etc. and so forth?
#74
Posted: 1/29/15 at 7:56pm
Gaveston, I was responding to AHLiebross, who seemed to conflate being gay with wanting to have sex with men. God knows the vast majority of gay men DO want to have sex with other men, but I'd say the affectional orientation trumps everything else. For all I know there are tons of straight men who wouldn't mind an expert blow job from a man from time to time, but they sure wouldn't want to kiss one on the mouth.
Namo, joking aside, the boys I wanted to be near in 4th grade were the boys my LOINS told me I wanted to be near, the boys I wanted to think of me as their best friend. (Needless to say I had a rough 4th grade.)
Back when I first posted this I originally typed "affectional preference" instead of orientation-- wasn't that the term we all used 20 years ago?-- until I feared retribution from the board for suggesting being gay is a preference. Damn you, words!
Namo, joking aside, the boys I wanted to be near in 4th grade were the boys my LOINS told me I wanted to be near, the boys I wanted to think of me as their best friend. (Needless to say I had a rough 4th grade.)
Back when I first posted this I originally typed "affectional preference" instead of orientation-- wasn't that the term we all used 20 years ago?-- until I feared retribution from the board for suggesting being gay is a preference. Damn you, words!
#75
Posted: 1/29/15 at 8:02pm
Yes, that's what I was saying - gender, like sexuality, is absolutely on a spectrum when it comes to what's on the inside rather than the outside. Using myself as an example, I enjoy women just as much as I enjoy musical theatre, I hate sports, and I cry when I get emotional, so I'm definitely not your average guy but am probably somewhere on the spectrum of gender since I have qualities some people (to my chagrin) view as "feminine."
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