Joel Grey Comes Out Publicly: 'I'm a Gay Man'- Page 5

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 1/30/15 at 11:47am

I got in trouble the other day with a younger gay cause I kept being all pre-Stonewall and calling another gay 'she.' My young friend was more confused than anything, but still. Come on, kween...know your history.

Though I do get a pang of anxiety every time I have a gentleman caller coming over and wondering whether or not my wall of framed original cast albums might be a nelly bridge too far. It never is...but it's hard lettin' go of that internalized homophobia, right girls?

[themysteriousgrowl]

Posted: 1/30/15 at 12:08pm

This is something, Robbie, that I struggle with. “She” and “Mary” and so forth – these are not in my gay vocabulary. And my fellow gay men rarely apply them to me, generally speaking, maybe because I unconsciously telegraph an aversion to it. I sort of – oh, this is awful, but, hey, we’re talking about internalized homophobia, and a lot of this stuff is deeply personal, right? So, **** it. Like so many parents of queer kids, I “tolerate” this language more than I “accept” it. But it’s not because I object to femininity. I feel pretty in touch with my own femininity and adore femme-ness in other gay men – not in a fetishistic way, but in a “you do you” kind of way. I’m aware that I fall somewhere in the middle, and I never pretend towards masculinity. I probably just as consciously fight that. I’ll throw out a “gurl” now and again, but with a shade of irony, since the very use of it, in itself, is a unavoidably a comment on how “not me” that is.

My problem – and I say this knowing my gay history – is the way the language makes an equivalency between gay men and women. I object to that because I feel like – or, more accurately, wonder if or worry that – it’s an example of gay men adopting, without realizing it, the way straight men have historically framed gay men – as women – like, actually -- as sissies, as not men. I feel like we, as gay men – we can be masc, femme, anywhere in between, but we just… aren’t women. It’s not about behavior or gestures or sibilant S’s. It’s about penises. To me, it seems to be the same mechanism that makes gay men yell, "YOU'RE SUCH A BOTTOM!" as a slur. So, I often wonder if the language is part of an ingrained, taught self-loathing. Or maybe it’s self-loathing to think it’s self-loathing. Or maybe both are true. I don’t know.

And it cuts close to things that my mother says. She’s cooled it in the past few years, but when I first came out, she’d say things like, “I want you to find someone like you. I’m okay with you being gay, but I’d be really disappointed if you brought home a flamer. That’s just not who you are.” And even though she doesn’t say it anymore, I know she thinks it. There’s this awful prejudice among the “tolerant” straight folks about femme gay men, and I think her greatest fear is, “Well, he used to be straight, and now he’s gay. Who’s to say that, now that he’s gay, he won’t decide he’s a woman next?” I think these things are different sides of the same coin.

I’m not articulating this well, but my own thoughts on it are often messy, too, so I guess this post is a reflection of that. It’s something I work through every day, and I never know how to feel about it.


EDIT: Oh, and Robbie, I feel I should clarify, since, when we met, I believe you called me Mary and she and queen -- at least. I don't get mad about it. I'm not even sure I bristle. I like that it challenges me. So you keep doing you, gurl. I'll be your Blanche anytime.

Updated On: 1/30/15 at 12:08 PM

Posted: 1/30/15 at 12:15pm

Whenever a guy tells me he doesn't have sex with feminine guys I say "Oh so you never masturbate?"

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 1/30/15 at 12:27pm

I'm going to paraphrase my favorite joke by Jaffe Cohen of Funny Gay Males:

I have a friend who hasn't used a masculine pronoun in 20 years. His father's a construction worker who was injured on the job. I said, "How's your dad?" and he said, "Oh, she's fiiiiiine."

Twitter @NamoInExile Instagram none

[themysteriousgrowl]

Posted: 1/30/15 at 12:31pm

[PalJoey]

Posted: 1/30/15 at 12:32pm

So which is more indicative of internalized homophobia: acting "queeny"--or being afraid of acting "queeny"?

When I was growing up, the message I received from the men of the pre-Stonewall generation was that it took courage to be queeny.

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 1/30/15 at 12:33pm

growl,

Your thoughts are messy because this whole subject is messy...and we just all kind of find our way through the morass of internalized homophobia, barely sublimated misogyny and reclamation (or perhaps creation) of our true selves that comes from being an American gay man in 2015. I fall victim to it all the time. I have no problem falling for a femme-acting guy, as long as he looks like my version of what an ideal man is: stocky, hairy and sporting some kind of facial hair. What the f*ck does that say about me? I have no idea. It's this weird push-and-pull of defining yourself and being influenced by the dominant culture of masculinity in this country. I love using Mattachine-speak because I feel like it challenges the fetish-ization of masculinity that can happen in our community (lumbersexuals??? bitch, please). But I also recognize that it trades in misogynistic assumptions about femininity that can offend women. I never worry about offending men (gay or straight or somewhere on the continuum) because male privilege is absolute. But it does give me pause that women will hear it and think my intentions are based in misogyny. But then, I've noticed a whole lot of women with whom I'm acquainted starting to take on the language of pre-Stonewall among their gay male friends. Queer nightlife and culture here in NYC is being heavily influenced by what I call female drag queens...cis-women who take on a decidedly drag persona when they perform at clubs like Therapy, Joe's Pub, Industry, etc. It's fascinating to see how gay culture (specifically drag) is being appropriated by cis women to a somewhat shocking effect. It's a further blurring of gender and sexual lines that I'm drawn to, even though I was originally put off by the female drag queen.

Oh GOD, I'm rambling. And none of this makes any sense or has anything to do with Joel Grey! Sorry.

Posted: 1/30/15 at 12:35pm

I think it takes courage to be Jeannie

[themysteriousgrowl]

Posted: 1/30/15 at 12:38pm

Well, PJ, like I said, my questions aren’t about behavior; they’re about language. I have no problem with queeny. I like queeny. I’m often queeny myself. I just don’t call penised humans women because I feel like that’s something my son of a bitch father would do.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 1/30/15 at 12:40pm

What you wrote is great, robbie. This stuff swings like a pendulum do.

[someone.else's.story2]

Posted: 1/30/15 at 12:40pm

I was only surprised that he wasn't already out. I always knew he was gay.

In any case, kudos to him for making it official even if we already knew.

[haterobics]

Posted: 1/30/15 at 12:42pm

"I just don’t call penised humans women because I feel like that’s something my son of a bitch father would do."

I don't think I've ever called another homo "girl" or somesuch without it being affectionate or friendly, though. Intent seems to be a huge factor.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 1/30/15 at 12:44pm

I think Joel Grey would be delighted to know that his thread occasioned one of the best conversations about a complex topic ever to occur on BroadwayWorld.

I hope someone tells him!

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 1/30/15 at 12:44pm

"I just don’t call penised humans women because I feel like that’s something my son of a bitch father would do."

Which may be the reason why I do it. F*CK you, dad...I'm gonna own this and let you have zero power. Or some such nonsense like that. Whatever I have to do and say to be able to sleep at night.

[themysteriousgrowl]

Posted: 1/30/15 at 12:58pm

I wear my father's Air Force jacket to gay bars for the same reason!

And I agree there's empowerment in calling it a reclamation, Robbie, and I agree, hater, that intent is what makes it, like, kosher and even welcomed in a social sense.

My fears are more about where it may have come from and whether these justifications are just that -- justifications. There doesn't seem to have been a conscious reclaiming here, as there was with "queer" for the gays or "n*" for African-Americans. It feels more like, if I may queen out by appropriating an MT term, back-phrasing.

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 1/30/15 at 1:08pm

'Back-phrasing' is going to be my new thing to say about EVERYTHING! THANKS, MARY!

My last line about doing whatever I must in order to sleep at night wasn't really a throw-away. I recognize that all of this is simply justification for our behaviors and maybe I really need to make a shift. Or maybe there's a kernel of truth in the bullsh*t. I do know I spend a lot of time thinking about these things, which means at least I'm mindful of the choices I'm making.

And please wear your father's air force jacket next time your in NYC. I'll spend the rest of the night calling you Blanche and it will be every level of fabulous.

[themysteriousgrowl]

Posted: 1/30/15 at 1:16pm

"I do know I spend a lot of time thinking about these things, which means at least I'm mindful of the choices I'm making."

THIS, THIS, THIS.

This is what lets me sleep at night. Gosh, that sounds so lazy. But it's true. And these thoughts can be exhausting. So maybe it's not so lazy.

Re: your thoughts about “lumbersexuality” and the gay fetishization of straight-male/masc/no-homo culture – this is something else I sometimes see in a “different side of the same coin” kind of way. To me, it seems to be buying wholesale into straight ideas of gay men and gay culture, the way that, for gay men, “He’s soooooo gay” is code for “He’s soooooo femme.” Yuck. Dude, that’s what your older brother’s friends said about you. Come on. I don’t think there’s anything inherently funny about being gay. Straight people sure do, though. And that’s how we got Jack McFarland. It's hilarious that he's sooooooooo gay!

It’s calming that we can talk about it – or that it can be talked about. I’d never expect anyone to change their ways in either direction without giving it a good, hard, maybe lifelong think. It’s very possible that all of my qualms stem from the fact that it’s not a way of speaking that feels natural to me, and so I just… literally can’t understand it.

#thestruggleisyas

Updated On: 1/30/15 at 01:16 PM

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 1/30/15 at 1:27pm

I don't really "girl" other guys often, and it's usually ironically when I do. I've never been one to "she" them. It's always reminded me of much older guys I'd meet when I first came out 20 years ago, who were the living embodiment of those old queens from Viscous, who just seem to be nasty for the sake of being nasty. Plus two posters here I've blocked constantly do it, so that's all the more reason for me not to. But I don't chafe when people I don't hate do it, unless I detect there's something about that "she" that's meant to be diminishing or insulting.

And to answer PJ's question, I'd say that fear of acting queeny (and/or disdain for people who act queeny) is more indicative of internalized homophobia.

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 1/30/15 at 1:57pm

'It's always reminded me of much older guys I'd meet when I first came out 20 years ago, who were the living embodiment of those old queens from Viscous, who just seem to be nasty for the sake of being nasty.'

I still can be rendered speechless when I encounter that very quality. I will simply never forget the time (and I've told this story on here, so please forgive the repetition) I was at the Townhouse and was talking to a friend of a friend about LIGHT IN THE PIAZZA. I mentioned that I didn't like it. I was even measured in my expression of dislike. And that bitch actually slapped me. SLAPPED ME. I looked around to see if Emory was serving his Alice B. Toklas lasagna.

HE SLAPPED ME.

I guess if I don't detect cruelty, I'm all 'Say what you want to say how you want to say it.'

[haterobics]

Posted: 1/30/15 at 1:58pm

^^^ I kind of love someone being that passionate about a show.

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 1/30/15 at 2:03pm

Speaking of internalized homophobia, it's a year (this weekend) since Panti's Noble Call - a year in which I've genuinely stopped "checking myself" as much, so yay for that.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 1/30/15 at 2:10pm

You go, girl.

[Fantod]

Posted: 1/30/15 at 2:21pm

This discussion makes me really happy because a few months ago people had a discussion about whether or not bisexual people were real.

I for one think that people should be allowed to label or not label their gender or sexuality however they want. Someone could go around believing themselves to be a heterosexual man for their whole life, and then fall madly, head over heels in love with a man the very next day. It doesn't always happen, but it is totally possible. If you feel that you are a man, then you are a man in my book. The same goes for women, even if you were given a different gender at birth. You are who you are.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 1/30/15 at 2:32pm

That's a little, how to say it, modern, isn't it? I don't think this is going to go over well with the candy dish on a doily crowd. I mean, next thing you know somebody will make a musical about a young woman discovering her lesbianism with a SEXUAL COMPONENT and society will collapse. You're okay with this?

[Kad]

Posted: 1/30/15 at 2:38pm

"This discussion makes me really happy because a few months ago people had a discussion about whether or not bisexual people were real."

Oh GOD, just the mention of that thread makes my eye twitch.

This thread has taught me that I need to talk to themysteriousgrowl about sexuality more.