Judge's Song in Sweeney Todd- Page 2

[Liz_Bennet]

Posted: 10/3/05 at 10:04pm

I think you can pull it off without the number- there isn't much dialogue about the Judge's and Johanna's relationship, but if he ogles her lecherously enough people should get the idea. That being said, if you can find a way to make the number work in your space, I think you should keep it.

[Nokros]

Posted: 10/3/05 at 10:17pm

The number was cut from the Original Broadway production because Hal Prince didn't like it. He said, "I took it out. We did it at the first preview, and I said 'It's gone tomorrow.' I don't get it; I don't know how to do it. . . .And furthermore, I don't like it, so it wasn't there." (that quote's from Secrest's biography of Sondheim, which is god awful, but I'd assume at least the quotes are accurate)

It was Prince who cut the song, not Sondheim. I heard that Edmund Lyndeck performed it beautifully at the first preview.

I think the song is necessary, and the only reason I can think to cut it now that Sweeney Todd is almost universally accepted as a masterpiece is for high school productions (not that I think high schoolers can't handle it, but that high school administrators fresk out at the concept of the song) - and yes, there have been good high school production of Sweeney.

I can also understand it being cut in the original because Sweeney was new, it was trodding on dangerous ground, and keeping in the Judge's Johanna might have taken it too far. Not that I agree with it, but I see how it may be have necessary.

[pab]

Posted: 10/4/05 at 12:50am

"To not do this song is to not understand what this show is about. "

Oh please!

[PerforMeg]

Posted: 10/4/05 at 1:29am

First of all, thank you very much to all those who have actually attempted to answer my inquiry.

Nokros-Thank you for listing that quote.

theatretrash: That quote was going to be my rebuttal. Hal Prince didn't know how to do it. HAL PRINCE.

It is a controversial scene. It's not like I'm taking a scene that's never been altered or debated and deciding I don't know what to do with it so I'm cutting it. I am thinking of the audience, the actors, and the piece as a whole.

I chose this piece because it is challenging, meaningful, and truly thrilling, because I am passionate about the score and because there is nothing else like it in musical theatre. Just because I'm not comfortable with something doesn't mean I won't do it if I know it is important to the story. Hence this thread. Thanks for taking the opportunity to be rude though.

Whatacharacter-I agree with you, and that thought has often crossed my mind: Why is THAT scene so difficult when the rest of the show is about murder and cannibalism? The only thing I can come up with is that our society is, sadly, somewhat desensitized to murder in our entertainment venues: We see it on TV, in the movies, etc. But you have to get the porn channels or at least late night Cinemax to get people masturbating in front of an audience.

[touchmeinthemorning]

Posted: 10/4/05 at 9:47am

lol...good point, pab.

Meg, there are any number of ways to characterize this song...it doesn't have to be the porn-style masturbation. If the judge is seen early as the clear villian, the audience can see the flogging and then only those who are looking for it will see the climax of the scene. Most of the time this scene gets staged, there is flogging, but not an out and out whack-off. He imagines himself into climax, not physicalizes himself. In fact, i'd say physicalizing the masturbation would be wrong -- the scene is not about HIM being sexualized, it is about his imagining and sexualization of his ward. That is usually an acceptable level of discomfort for most audiences.

[cpking]

Posted: 9/28/23 at 4:16pm

For what it's worth, I'm currently playing Turpin in a local production in Sweeney. It was decided last night (2 nights before opening) to cut the song. I was told it was because of pacing. That said...

I believe the song embodies everything the judge is really about. Without it, he's a sort of moustache twirling villain. But the song informs much of the character, IMO. How vile a creature must Turpin be to motivate Sweeney to be what he is? We know Turpin is mean. But the song tells of his torture, his hypocrisy, and most certainly the level of obsession he has for Johanna.

Since the cut was made, I'm going to back and review every single line, looking for ways to reveal is almost psychotic view of things. What the song does is show the audience first, his tortured soul, then his obsession and then his delusion. The other scenes are the counterpart to that inner torment and narcissism.

[EvanstonDad]

Posted: 9/28/23 at 5:16pm

I think this song should be kept in and I like it a lot myself. It adds to the darkness and sexuality of the show, and it also calls out the hypocrisy of the church and adds to Sweeney's perspective of the world as a place full of people in authority preying on those with less power. 

But I have to say that I've never actually seen this number included in any production I've seen, and that includes one at Chicago's Lyric Opera and one at Ravinia with Patti LuPone and George Hearn. And unless I'm mistaken, it's not in the current revival is it? At least it's not on the cast recording. So I'm not sure I agree with those saying you can't stage Sweeney without it, as it seems to be excluded more often than not these days.

But I have to wonder -- if you have a problem with this number, how do you not have a problem with the whole show?

[halfhourcheckwithmerman]

Posted: 9/28/23 at 5:46pm

[from Mark Horowitz's book of interviews with Sondheim]

MH: Judge Turpin's "Johanna."

SS: This song is often cut.

MH: Yes—which, I understand, is something that upsets you. You feel strongly that it should be kept in the show.

SS: Yes—he's the only character who's not musicalized. If this song isn't in the show, he doesn't have anything to sing that is his alone. All he sings is the duet of "Pretty Women," and it seemed to me very important. Hal Prince was extremely offended by this song—or he thought the audience would be, anyway—because of what seemed to be a kind of masochistic self-flagellation. But in Victorian terms, and considering the Judge, and his guilt about his lechery, it's far from it. And I tried to incorporate a certain comic aspect into it, in the fact that he couldn't take his eye off the keyhole, looking at Johanna on his knees. I think it works very well. And when we did it at City Opera, I persuaded Hal to reinstate it, because by that time the show had reached its shape.

There's another reason, too. When we started previews, I thought the show was in very good shape ---Hal says to me that it wasn't in as good shape as I think it was, but I thought it was in fine shape—but there was a sense of longeur in the middle of the first act. It was because we had just gotten interested in Sweeney and Mrs. Lovett, and then we went to "Green Finch and Linnet Bird" where we got involved with Johanna and Anthony and the Judge, and then we went into the town square—which is really about Pirelli and Tobias, although Sweeney and Mrs. Lovett are on the outside—and then we went to the Judge's chambers, and it was the Judge and Johanna, then we got back to the pie shop. In other words, there were about fifteen to twenty minutes there where we were separated from our main characters, and then picked up the thread of the story. And the story is about Sweeney and Mrs. Lovett—it's not about Johanna and Anthony; that's the subplot. So we felt we should cut something. The first thing I cut was half of the challenge song between Pirelli and Sweeney—well, it's Pirelli's song—"The Contest." I took out all the tooth-pulling stuff. And, I think, with the same fell swoop, we took out the Judge's song. Hal, I think, was very relieved to take out the Judge's song, but there was a dramatic reason to take it out. Once the show had found its shape—it seems like a paradox—reinserting the Judge's song after all this time didn't interrupt it as much. I don't know why that is, but somehow, the globule that held it together still held it together, even with the insertion of the Judge's song. So in future productions, I hope the Judge's song is included, because I don't think it breaks the tension.