Judge's Song in Sweeney Todd

[PerforMeg]

Posted: 10/3/05 at 1:20am

Sorry to keep asking Sweeney Todd questions people, but I need input!

The Judge's self-flagellation/masturbation/religious guilt scene-sometimes it is cut, sometimes it is not. What do you think?

In the production I'm going to direct we are planning on using a very intimate space, so my instinct is no, something like that is just too much. However, I know that Sondheim was very adamant about keeping the scene, and I realize it adds to the Judge's character and provides some background for his sudden decision to marry Johanna. If we don't have that scene, the only indication of his feelings are in the Green Finch scene when he says "How sweet you look in that white muslin gown." So I am torn. I will also admit that as a director it is not something I am comfortable staging. But I want to honor the show the best I can.

Like I said, if you're in a huge proscenium house maybe it's okay, but for a thrust stage in a small theatre it is just way too much, I think. But I'd love to hear other opinions, or agreements!

[pab]

Posted: 10/3/05 at 1:32am

When I directed the show I also cut that song.

As for his feelings for Johanna, the Judge also says:

JUDGE: In order to shield her from the evils of this world, I have decided to marry Johanna next Monday.

BEADLE: Ah, sir, happy news indeed.

JUDGE: Strange, when I offered myself to her, she showed a certain reluctance. But that's natural enough in a young girl. Now that she has had time for reflection, I'm sure she will greet my proposal in a more sensible frame of mind.

So, there is more about his feelings for her than just "How sweet you look in that white muslin gown."

[musicalfandukie]

Posted: 10/3/05 at 1:36am

In the production of sweeney i was just in the director decided to cut the begaining of the song when he is singing deliever me and the self-flagellation part and so on. he just had the judge sing

Johanna, Johanna,
I'll keep you here forever,
I'll wed you on the morrow.
Johanna, Johanna,
The world will never touch you,
I'll wed you on the morrow!
As years pass, Johanna,
You'll tend me in my solitude,
No longer as a daughter,
As a woman.
Johanna, Johanna,
I'll hold you here forever then,
You'll keep away from windows and
You'll
Deliver me,
Johanna,
From this
Hot
Red
Devil
With your
Soft
White
Cool
Virgin
Palms.

keeping that little solo in and cutting the begaining helped with the judges character but still keep it a little more tame for the audience to take...you could even keep the whole song and just cut the deliever me's out and the self-flagellation. or you can just give it a shot and keep the whole song as is...lol

[andyf]

Posted: 10/3/05 at 2:29am

Flagellation, regulation, integrations,
Meditations, United Nations,
Congratulations!!!...?

[PerforMeg]

Posted: 10/3/05 at 4:33am

pab-thanks for your input. I actually meant that before the dialogue you listed there is no indication of his feelings for her besides that one line. you have that one little clue and then all of a sudden, he's going to marry her. My fear is that the audience goes, "wait, I thought he was her adoptive father? What?" But maybe I'm being too paranoid. It hasn't seemed to hurt anything in other productions not having that scene.

Not being difficult, just wanted to clarify. I appreciate the information.

[Fosse76]

Posted: 10/3/05 at 10:10am

Are you people actually (and by that I mean LEGALLY) allowed to cut that song? Is it an optional song, or one that you illegally purge from the show?

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 10/3/05 at 10:21am

Yes, I believe it is optional (although I don't have the MTI script on me). I personally feel that the song is not really necessary, but it doesn't hurt to have it in there (unless you're concerned about the first act being too long, which was why it was cut from the original production). The Judge doesn't need to have any "depth" to him--his sole function in the play is to be the object of Sweeney's revenge, and that's all. However, if I were playing the Judge, I'd probably feel differently

On a different note, if you're going to cut anything, cut the optional Pirelli tooth-pulling sequence. It's like, "yes, Sweeney is a better barber than Pirelli. Let's move on."

[whatacharacter]

Posted: 10/3/05 at 10:22am

This thread is so reflective of the root of so many of our problems in this country. Sweeney Todd is a show about people getting killed and then eaten!!! You have no problem showing murder or canibalism on the stage, but the thought of an old guy whacking one off is "too graphic". I saw Sweeney when it was done at signature Theatre a few years back with Norm Lewis in the title role. This is a very small black box space. not only did they not cut the number, but the judges hand emerged from his pants at the end of the number literally dripping. It was definately unsettling, but the judge is not supposed to be a likeable character, and it made you hate him and his imprisonment of Johanna even more. Why is mastrubation unexceptable, yet murder is? Everybody maturbates...whether you admit it or not.

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 10/3/05 at 10:29am

So, did you type that with one hand?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[whatacharacter]

Posted: 10/3/05 at 10:43am

Sondhiem doesn't write anything without purpose. If he didn't want it there, he would not make it available, like he has done with the original version of Merrily.

[robbiej]

Posted: 10/3/05 at 10:47am

I'm fully in the 'keep it' camp.

But, personally, I think it's more powerful to have him climax solely from the whipping. I think it says more about his sexual demons if he actually doesn't use his hand.

[best12bars]

Posted: 10/3/05 at 10:55am

Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Judge's song cut during previews from the Broadway production as well? I know it's on the OBCR, but it's missing from the Los Angeles production (seen on the DVD).

I thought Sondheim and the creative team just wanted it recorded for "posterity."

Anyone know the answer?

Updated On: 10/3/05 at 10:55 AM

[SorryGrateful]

Posted: 10/3/05 at 11:41am

Hi, PerforMeg! I say keep the number. It's truly amazing and it's one of my favorites from the show. Since you will be in a small house, maybe, you know, keep his hands out of his pants, but he doesn't actually have to be whacking it onstage for the number to work. I went to see a production of this at Loyola, the Jesuit university here in Chicago, and even they kept the number. (They had him with his shirt off, whipping himself on the back.) I truly think something is lost from the show if the Judge's "Johanna" is cut.

[doodlenyc]

Posted: 10/3/05 at 11:54am

I think it is important musically as well.

The flagellation scene was in the original bway run, but cut for the tour (I saw it in Philly.)

[iluvtheatertrash]

Posted: 10/3/05 at 12:19pm

Meg, I don't mean this in a rude way, but if you're not comfortable directing that - why choose this show to direct it? It's a very pivotal piece of the plot and the material. To me, that just doesn't make sense in a director's choice.

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 10/3/05 at 12:21pm

If it was so pivotal, it wouldn't have been cut from the original Broadway production.

[robbiej]

Posted: 10/3/05 at 12:24pm

Sondheim has stated that the original production was not his ideal.

[doodlenyc]

Posted: 10/3/05 at 12:31pm

The exclusion of the Judge's Johanna from the tour may have been reactionary to make the original and the tour more "palatable" but, every incarnation since, the scene is in, including the Teeney Todd revival in '89. One of the creators must have deemed it necessary.

[iluvtheatertrash]

Posted: 10/3/05 at 12:38pm

Thank you, robbiej.

[touchmeinthemorning]

Posted: 10/3/05 at 12:52pm

To not do this song is to not understand what this show is about.

It is all about what people do in response to desire, and if you miss this song, you miss a huge aspect of desire. You also miss the humanization of one of the most important folks in the show. And, you miss a damn good song.

[buffyactsing]

Posted: 10/3/05 at 2:37pm

I too am in the keep it in camp. It's a beautiful song. I don't understand cutting this one any more than I understand those who cut Jud's song in Oklahoma.

I agree that it's an amazing moment.This whole show should be unsettling. That's the whole point,and this is one of the (IMO) defining moments of the show. Maybe it will be a challege for you as a director to push your own comfort levels?

When I did Sweeney in High School, we had some middle schoolers in our cast as well. Our Judge was a tall, talented 13 year old who's voice had changed. We did the song. He removed his jacket and he did whip himself. If he can do it, you can too (in regard to your comfort level).

Updated On: 10/3/05 at 02:37 PM

[GYPSY1527]

Posted: 10/3/05 at 2:39pm

I too can't imagine the show without it. Like previously said, its so intregal to the character of the Judge. Perfectly said touchmeinthemorning

[jasonf]

Posted: 10/3/05 at 9:14pm

I think it's an important song that should be kept -- I've NEVER seen it staged with him ACTUALLY masturbating on stage though!

[munkustrap178]

Posted: 10/3/05 at 9:24pm

In the revival he doesn't masturbate OR whip himself or anything. He is sitting in a chair with a rosary.

[Liz_Bennet]

Posted: 10/3/05 at 10:04pm

I think you can pull it off without the number- there isn't much dialogue about the Judge's and Johanna's relationship, but if he ogles her lecherously enough people should get the idea. That being said, if you can find a way to make the number work in your space, I think you should keep it.