Miss Saigon and racism — Page 4

"Also, the play is not racist. If you think it is, I would say the problem lies with your own self-image rather than the content of a musical play."

That line is classic privilege (and before you say you're not a white male, you don't have to be a white male to have privilege…we all do in some capacities). God forbid individuals within a community express their opinions on a work that is depicting their people. What it really boils down to is that you think your enjoyment and entertainment and fun should not be ruined. Your enjoyment is more important than the people actually being portrayed. Sorry if I think artists should be more conscientious when creating characters who are not of their background and try to avoid racist portrayals that have historical root in imperialistic attitudes. It definitely can be done.

Yes, my view is pretty cynical, but at the same time I don't think it's without merit. OK, so let's say for the sake of argument that I concede that the whole show isn't "premised" on that idea. However, the show's story hinges on the idea that Kim's son had no future in Vietnam (and Thailand too because all Asian places are the same and that's where she ended up) and he would have better off in America with a father he doesn't know rather than his mother. Of course to justify it, her life is absolutely hellish and there's just no options for her. Audiences, if they are buying this story or even just going along with it, have to accept those things to be true in order to accept Kim's actions as heroic or even plausible.

There's also the fact that the show was created by Westerners who thought they could take a Westerner's take on Japanese culture (Madame Butterfly) and just place it in Vietnam because they think the cultures are similar due to their race. I know there's some literature about how suicides are not seen as negatively in Japan (among other cultures) as it is in the West. In fact there are honorable suicides. However, Vietnamese culture is not Japanese culture. Madame Butterfly's suicide makes a little sense because of the idea of suicide being honorable exists in Japan (though David Henry Hwang takes that idea and inverts it on its head). However, there's no such history in Vietnam.

---

Updated On: 7/18/14 at 08:24 PM

"I'm sure new shows like that can be created, but perhaps your frustrated should be directed towards the Asian Americans urging them to create them?"

They are. Unfortunately, the general public does not hear about them. And they will only rarely appear on a prominent stage in America.

The work is there. The talent is there. Is the audience there? I don't know. Few big name theatres or producers will be willing to give it a shot.

Asian-American actors, needing to survive, can't afford to turn down well-paying productions of the same handful of shows.

As for playwrights, directors, designers - well... we have David Henry Hwang, the go-to for an Asian voice in American theatre.

To imply that the work isn't being created is disingenuous. It is.

---

David Henry Hwang gave us the "re-imagined" FLOWER DURM SONG, which replaced the original 1950's racial stereotypes equally (or more) new ones.

"Is this real life?"

Regarding the comment you're responding to, it appears as though you didn't finish the sentence you're quoting - or maybe you did and simply chose to ignore the rest so your quip.....looks like a quip.

To discuss a play and reveal major parts of the plot during the discussion shows a lack of respect for fellow theater goers.

The length of some posts here shows posters are articulate enough to discuss matters without revealing the plot. Penn and Teller can discuss how tricks are done with other magicians without revealing how they do it to the public.

I guess many of the posters are older. However young people do not know the plot of Romeo and Juliet. Many will currently be studying the book in school. Then some old person reveals the plot on a message board !!!

If you are going to look at a thread debating whether a play is racist, or otherwise objectionable, then you should realize that in addressing this question posters are going to have to reveal the play's plot.

The analogy isn't to a thread about Penn and Teller. But to a thread about whether Penn and Teller's tricks are obvious or uncanny.

Updated On: 7/19/14 at 09:08 AM

Ah yes. More talking over someone of actual Asian descent. Of actual Vietnamese descent? Why did I come back here... WHYYYYY. Thanks, GavestonPS. No one seems to have listened to you when you said it was probably not a good idea to tell people who to not be offended by.

I feel for you, VIETgrlTerifa. Let's just go see Allegiance together, shall we?

P.S. To answer the question asked of me long ago about Christmas Eve -- I did see Avenue Q, twice. It was fun, but I felt like if you weren't in on the joke, you were going to not take it the right way. But I didn't really like Avenue Q anyway (I didn't hate it; I just apathetically disliked it).

---

Updated On: 7/20/14 at 01:03 AM

I wish I knew! I actually have never even seen Allegiance, but I'm going on the word of a few people including a good friend who's Asian American, works in theatre and prefers plays to musicals -- and she loved it. You'd think someone like George Takei would be a heavyweight when it comes to backers, but maybe that's not the problem?

---

It's interesting you say that, Gaveston -- because I own that "making of" documentary that chronicles the development of the show up until its original opening night in London. There's a whole sequence shown at Dewynters HQ with their graphic designer (Russ Eglin) going through old versions of logos until they reached their final helicopter design.

Even at the time they'd decided to set the show in Vietnam, there were plenty of brushstroke-style illustrations depicting a woman in a kimono or something that otherwise was way more Japanese than Vietnamese. I don't really think they cared about the vast difference in culture. It was just "Asian."

And when they talk about what became the final logo (the face in the helicopter, all in brushstrokes), they talk about how the helicopter also looks like an Asian character (as in, written word). VIETgrl, maybe you can shed more light on this, but since Vietnamese has used Roman characters for so long, wouldn't a character-based design for a show set in Vietnam be pretty much irrelevant?

The problems started, as you said, Gaveston, way, way back, continued even into the development of Miss Saigon's corporate identity, and last until today.

---

Updated On: 7/20/14 at 08:43 AM

The show isn't racist in the least.

I can remember some people being up in arms about the casting of Jonatan Pryce, but other than that no. Not at all.

I remember Colleen Dewhurst who was president of Equity made a big stink over the casting of the BRILLIANT Jonatahn Pryce as an Asian. What a big dummy she was. She actively campaigned to have Pryce removed and replaced with an Asian actor. How dare she.

Oh and BTW in 1970 there was a production of The Good Woman of Setzuan over at Lincoln Center and the actress who played the Chinese character Shen Te was... you guessed it! Colleen Dewhurst. You can't make this stuff up, folks! What a joke she was.

Updated On: 7/20/14 at 12:52 PM

Well 1970 was a different time from 1990. You would hope they'd make some progress in twenty years and I am sure there were a lot of Asian or mixed Asian/Caucasian actors from the U.S. who could have done the part just as well as Jonathan Pryce's overly hammy performance by 1990. But then who knows.

GavestonPS, I'm only using the term Westerners for lack of a better term. I mean I'm a Westerner too since I was born, raised, and live in the U.S. I just have a connection to Vietnam through my family and how I was raised within my household and in the Vietnamese-American community. Anyway, by Westerner I only mean that they are a French composer and librettist duo, but Cameron Mackintosh was also heavily involved as a producer, and of course there is the fact that Miss Saigon is adapted from an Italian opera which itself was based on an American translation. So I could not just say Italian ideas, French ideas, American ideas, British ideas, etc. I do think the orientalism displayed in Miss Saigon by the creators really stems from the time when American and European nations imperialized Asia in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries.

Pasdechat, I do think this conversation has been dominated by the racist aspects of the work, and maybe we should look at the sexism involved as well. However, I do not think that it is sexist before racist or that it is racist before sexist. I think it's all intersected and you can't ignore one while talking about the other. They work in conjunction.

LizzieCurry, excellent point about the logo! I didn't even think about that. But year, the brushstrokes and Chinese-style characters or Japanese-style kanji would be out-of-place in Vietnam since the literate Vietnamese people have been predominantly using the latin alphabet since 1910 and that alphabet had been around since the 1500s. Thanks for the background on the original concept art for the show. It seems like they just told the story that they wanted, set it in Vietnam, and tried to make it fit to their vision.

---

Updated On: 7/20/14 at 01:44 PM

PalJoey I very much regret that you feel the need to personally insult me. I admire and respect you, so I very much don't like it.

Not one word I said about Colleen Dewhurst is untrue. She actively campaigned to get an actor removed from a show in which he'd been cast. A fellow actor. What kind of a person DOES that to another person? Tries to get him fired for a role he WORKED for. Especially when she herself played one over at Lincoln Center.

I know she died shortly after that. I can only hope it was some kind of dementia that led to her petty actions and comments about the wonderful Jonathan Pryce.