#101
Posted: 7/20/14 at 3:18pm
Character assassination of Colleen Dewhurst especially when she isn't around to defend herself? That ain't Broadway.
Miss Saigon and racism — Page 5
#102
Posted: 7/20/14 at 3:21pm
Well guess what? Trying to have a fellow actor fired from a production you have nothing to do with ain't Broadway either. Not by a long shot.
#103
Posted: 7/20/14 at 3:26pm
And when you spoke with her about it, what did she say her reasoning was? And if your answer is that you didn't actually talk to her directly but heard it second and third hand, well even Irene Ryan would tell you... that ain't Broadway.
#104
Posted: 7/20/14 at 3:27pm
In that case, you'll have to call a bunch of other people dummies, since AEA's stance was hardly just a whim of Colleen Dewhurst's.
#105
Posted: 7/20/14 at 4:39pm
Believe me, I read enough about it at the time. I was so angry over it I could spit!
And please, before anyone starts talking to me about "privilege"- I am part of one of the most downtrodden (and in earlier times despised) groups in the history of the world, a homosexual. I don't know from privilege so you can just stuff THAT one in a sack.
http://www.nytimes.com/1990/08/11/theater/british-star-talks-of-racial-harmony-and-disillusionment-with-equity.html
And please, before anyone starts talking to me about "privilege"- I am part of one of the most downtrodden (and in earlier times despised) groups in the history of the world, a homosexual. I don't know from privilege so you can just stuff THAT one in a sack.
http://www.nytimes.com/1990/08/11/theater/british-star-talks-of-racial-harmony-and-disillusionment-with-equity.html
#106
Posted: 7/20/14 at 4:54pm
Well, we all have privilege. And being gay doesn't mean you can speak on behalf of the Asian community, just like I can't speak on behalf of the transgender community. What we can do is allow people to speak for themselves and try not to undermine their experiences just because they speak from a experience we cannot say we share. I also want to put a disclaimer in saying that just because I have this view doesn't mean I'm speaking on behalf of all Asian-Americans either. My posts are my own from my own education and observations which are colored by my life experiences.
"I've got to get me out of here
This place is full of dirty old men
And the navigators and their mappy maps
And moldy heads and pissing on sugar cubes
While you stare at your books."
Updated On: 7/20/14 at 04:54 PM
#107
Posted: 7/20/14 at 5:03pm
Great points, VietGrl, it’s time people tried to understand struggles they don’t endure themselves.
#109
Posted: 7/20/14 at 6:19pm
"Well 1970 was a different time from 1990. "
Well, yeah, and Brecht's play takes place in a highly fictionalized "Asian" area--no more literal than The Mikado's Japan or the Asia of Turandot.
Well, yeah, and Brecht's play takes place in a highly fictionalized "Asian" area--no more literal than The Mikado's Japan or the Asia of Turandot.
#110
Posted: 7/20/14 at 6:25pm
I hate it when anyone dares to suggest that I have not been though struggles. Being homosexual is no day at the beach. I've been through the mill, honey child. I know just as well as anyone else why the caged bird sings. I am entitled to my opinion about the silly 1990 Miss Saigon dust up.
#111
Posted: 7/20/14 at 6:26pm
Is retelling the original story from Japan in a new setting with the Vietnam war as a more contemporary background really a racist conflating of two cultures, or an updating of a story by setting it in a more modern time and place so that the context will resonate more strongly with the audience members? Is it really any different that resetting Romeo and Juliet from Italy to New York as West Side Story, or resetting Liliom from Hungary to New England as Carousel, or resetting La Boheme from Paris to New York as Rent? That particular choice to reset Madame Butterfly in Vietnam to bring the audience closer to a contemporary situation just doesn't strike me as inherently racist.
#112
Posted: 7/20/14 at 6:26pm
Except it's supposed to be about a specific event in Vietnam set in a specific time period. You don't think people have written about The Mikado and Turandot either? The difference is that the time those pieces are written compared to 1990. The fact that Miss Saigon received instant feedback and reactions from the Asian community illustrates that difference.
@adam.peterson, that in itself is not the problem. The problem is the detail or lack of respect to the culture that is being portrayed. With the updating of Romeo and Juliet to 1950s NYC, the creators made efforts to study the lives of the Puerto Rican and the second/third generation Eastern European immigrants living in those neighborhoods. It's not perfect, but, IMO, you can tell the difference in the treatment. Even the latest revival with its issues (on the Jets side it seems) tried to update it even further by collaborating with Lin-Miguel Miranda and adding Spanish dialogue and lyrics with permission from Sondheim and Laurents. You can argue if that was a good choice or not, but at least it shows the creative team is trying to show respect.
Again, I'm not saying people can't create works about cultures that are not their own, nor am I saying that people can't update material. I am just bringing up things that I have a problem with in the story, the treatment of Vietnam, and the characterizations of the Vietnamese archetypes based on historical and social context. My issues are echoed by other Asian-Americans who have written on this subject.
@lovebwy, you obviously don't understand what I am saying or choosing not to. I did not say you didn't go through your own struggles. I think me and you won't be able to have a meaningful conversation about this.
@adam.peterson, that in itself is not the problem. The problem is the detail or lack of respect to the culture that is being portrayed. With the updating of Romeo and Juliet to 1950s NYC, the creators made efforts to study the lives of the Puerto Rican and the second/third generation Eastern European immigrants living in those neighborhoods. It's not perfect, but, IMO, you can tell the difference in the treatment. Even the latest revival with its issues (on the Jets side it seems) tried to update it even further by collaborating with Lin-Miguel Miranda and adding Spanish dialogue and lyrics with permission from Sondheim and Laurents. You can argue if that was a good choice or not, but at least it shows the creative team is trying to show respect.
Again, I'm not saying people can't create works about cultures that are not their own, nor am I saying that people can't update material. I am just bringing up things that I have a problem with in the story, the treatment of Vietnam, and the characterizations of the Vietnamese archetypes based on historical and social context. My issues are echoed by other Asian-Americans who have written on this subject.
@lovebwy, you obviously don't understand what I am saying or choosing not to. I did not say you didn't go through your own struggles. I think me and you won't be able to have a meaningful conversation about this.
"I've got to get me out of here
This place is full of dirty old men
And the navigators and their mappy maps
And moldy heads and pissing on sugar cubes
While you stare at your books."
Updated On: 7/20/14 at 06:26 PM
#113
Posted: 7/20/14 at 6:40pm
Lovebwy is just complaining about their struggles, not realizing everyone has struggles of their own and most people go through a great deal of adversity throughout their lives.
"Except it's supposed to be about a specific event in Vietnam set in a specific time period."
Exactly.
"Except it's supposed to be about a specific event in Vietnam set in a specific time period."
Exactly.
#114
Posted: 7/20/14 at 7:31pm
Miss Dewhurst didn't create the controversy. She was under considerable (and understandable) pressure from the Asian-Americans in Actor's Equity. B.D. Wong and David Henry Hwang were both outspoken at the time, as I recall it. As I've said, I wasn't convinced a biracial character was the place to draw the line, but I can't blame the agitators for not waiting for another prominent "Asian" role.
As for GOOD PERSON (WOMAN) OF SZECHUAN, it has as much to do with Asia as ARTURO UI has to do with Chicago. Since Brecht has no interest in naturalism whatsoever, it would be a really poor place to fight a battle over ethnic representation.
***
VIET, I promise you I was just chuckling over our (nor just your) use of "Western" even as we complain about the conflation of Asian cultures in some sort of monolithic "Asia". Of course, the two are not really analogous, since we have English-language plays dating from at least the 16th century that distinguish between French, English and Italians. The context is just not the same.
I wasn't criticizing your use of language in any way. (And God knows we have to use SOME shorthand, lest every post be 20 pages long!)
***
Lizzy, thanks for the story of the evolution of the logo. I didn't know any of that.
***
Damn! If this conversation keeps up, I may have to go and see the damn poperetta!
As for GOOD PERSON (WOMAN) OF SZECHUAN, it has as much to do with Asia as ARTURO UI has to do with Chicago. Since Brecht has no interest in naturalism whatsoever, it would be a really poor place to fight a battle over ethnic representation.
***
VIET, I promise you I was just chuckling over our (nor just your) use of "Western" even as we complain about the conflation of Asian cultures in some sort of monolithic "Asia". Of course, the two are not really analogous, since we have English-language plays dating from at least the 16th century that distinguish between French, English and Italians. The context is just not the same.
I wasn't criticizing your use of language in any way. (And God knows we have to use SOME shorthand, lest every post be 20 pages long!)
***
Lizzy, thanks for the story of the evolution of the logo. I didn't know any of that.
***
Damn! If this conversation keeps up, I may have to go and see the damn poperetta!
Updated On: 7/20/14 at 07:31 PM
#115
Posted: 7/20/14 at 7:40pm
Gaveston, I think you should see (or listen to) it regardless: the show does have its problems (as shown here) but the score is marvelous (even if it does have a few waxy lyrics), and the recording features two definitive performances: Lea Salonga (nothing short of brilliant, both vocally and acting wise) and Jonathan Pryce (perfect for the greasy role). It really is a gorgeous listening experience.
"Sticks and stones, sister. Here, have a Valium." - Patti LuPone, a Memoir
#116
Posted: 7/20/14 at 7:47pm
"Being homosexual is no day at the beach. I've been through the mill, honey child. I know just as well as anyone else why the caged bird sings."
I would imagine most of the trouble you've had has to do with you being a repugnant person.
I would imagine most of the trouble you've had has to do with you being a repugnant person.
"...everyone finally shut up, and the audience could enjoy the beginning of the Anatevka Pogram in peace."
#117
Posted: 7/20/14 at 8:11pm
"Being homosexual is no day at the beach. I've been through the mill, honey child. I know just as well as anyone else why the caged bird sings."
This reminds me of a recent op-ed I read telling gay white men to stop imitating African-American women.
This reminds me of a recent op-ed I read telling gay white men to stop imitating African-American women.
#118
Posted: 7/20/14 at 9:08pm
That oped in Time Magazine prompted me to cancel my subscription. What stupid trash that was.
Updated On: 7/20/14 at 09:08 PM
#119
Posted: 7/20/14 at 9:21pm
A friend of mine wrote what I thought was a pretty good response to that weird article. But, I'm not white, gay, or male so I lack perspective.
H. Alan Scott
H. Alan Scott
#121
Posted: 7/20/14 at 9:27pm
I noticed that among the reactions I've seen from those articles (small sample size of my friends, acquaintances, and their friends) the gay men of color (mostly African-American) and women sided with the first article while some gay white men were applauding the response. I think it's an interesting dynamic to observe.
"I've got to get me out of here
This place is full of dirty old men
And the navigators and their mappy maps
And moldy heads and pissing on sugar cubes
While you stare at your books."
#122
Posted: 7/20/14 at 9:28pm
I feel bad that we have such a ultra PC mind frame when it comes to this. Theater is about to be imagination and drama. If Miss Saigon was all uber PC it would be boring.
That being said, I totally have to disagree about her being weak and killing herself because she couldn't be with her man. I believe that she took fate into her own hands. She was thrust into a bad situation (in the beginning) but in the end she took her own destiny into her own hands and knew that if she took her own life she could give her own child a better life....
That being said, I totally have to disagree about her being weak and killing herself because she couldn't be with her man. I believe that she took fate into her own hands. She was thrust into a bad situation (in the beginning) but in the end she took her own destiny into her own hands and knew that if she took her own life she could give her own child a better life....
"Whenever I get gloomy with the state of the world, I think about the arrivals gate at Heathrow Airport. General opinion's starting to make out that we live in a world of hatred and greed, but I don't see that. It seems to me that love is everywhere. Often it's not particularly dignified or newsworthy, but it's always there - fathers and sons, mothers and daughters, husbands and wives, boyfriends, girlfriends, old friends. When the planes hit the Twin Towers, as far as I know none of the phone calls from the people on board were messages of hate or revenge - they were all messages of love. If you look for it, I've got a sneaky feeling you'll find that love actually is all around."
#123
Posted: 7/20/14 at 9:31pm
So the only two choices are the show as it exists without input or consideration of the people being portrayed and an uber-PC show that's absolutely boring? Isn't that the logical fallacy of false dilemma?
Anyway, your characterization of Kim and her plight is an example of how it comes off to the audience and it is what I have a problem with. But then I already spoke about that extensively.
Anyway, your characterization of Kim and her plight is an example of how it comes off to the audience and it is what I have a problem with. But then I already spoke about that extensively.
"I've got to get me out of here
This place is full of dirty old men
And the navigators and their mappy maps
And moldy heads and pissing on sugar cubes
While you stare at your books."
Updated On: 7/20/14 at 09:31 PM
#124
Posted: 7/20/14 at 9:32pm
"I think it's an interesting dynamic to observe."
Not sure how interesting or noteworthy it is that everyone online is supporting the side of the argument with which they already agree.
Not sure how interesting or noteworthy it is that everyone online is supporting the side of the argument with which they already agree.
Updated On: 7/20/14 at 09:32 PM
#125
Posted: 7/20/14 at 9:52pm
Haterobics, I think that's a fairly interesting and noteworthy point, given the fact that we had actual Asian-Americans contributing to the discussion and a cabal of Caucasian Western European Males trying to drown them out. But whatevs.
And no one grew into anything new, we just became the worst of what we were."
Updated On: 7/20/14 at 09:52 PM
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