More Photos From West Side Story DC Production- Page 5

[Yero my Hero]

Posted: 12/27/08 at 3:47pm

I'll try to just debate rationally without getting angry and emotional, which isn't easy for me, but I think it will help both of us understand the other's points.

Wouldn't it be awkward if she just burst out into a song that was completely in spanish? How would I know that she's singing about love?

For one thing, it's not awkward because the scene preceding it, with Maria and the girls, is in Spanish. I get what you're saying, but I think "awkward" was the wrong word to use.

If the actress is any good, you can tell she is in love by her facial expressions, her eyes, her movements. If we were arguing about a Spanish recording on a CD, fine, but we're talking about a live performance, within the context of the rest of the show. I still don't quite understand what the problem is.

If I would be able to understand that she is in love, and you would be able to understand that she is in love, who is this hypothetical person who would not? I would argue that, even if that person exists, he is not the majority.

You are definitely not stupid for wanting to know more about the scene. That is when you go home, Google the song, and find the English lyrics. A deeper understanding brought on by your own research after the show is one thing; you seem to be saying that the show is HURT by the Spanish. I am saying that it is not HURT in that the entire experience is not adversely affected. Of course there is always more information to discover, which can further your understanding and deepen the meaning even more, but I do not think it is absolutely necessary to know in that scene that she specifically feels PRETTY and not just HAPPY. If someone wants to find out more, they can, but it does not hurt the scene if they do not get that tiny difference right away.

[sondheimgeek]

Posted: 12/27/08 at 3:49pm

"I'm arguing with people who are refusing to see the production, and even bashing it, simply because a couple songs are in Spanish."

When did I ever say I wouldn't see it because certain songs are in spanish? I never even bashed it. I simply said that I'm fine with it as long as it doesn't affect the understanding of others.

"That, to me, sounds like a stubborn, closed mind, and I should not have to defend myself for trying to open it."

And that's coming from someone who doesn't understand why someone would want to understand more than just the "context". Sounds pretty closed minded to me.

"I'm sorry if I got frustrated for hearing the same argument over and over again which, to me, makes no sense at all, "

That's right, it doesn't make sense to you. As I said before, just because it works for you doesn't mean it works for everyone else.

And as beltingbaritone said, there's Symbolism, literary devices, etc., in Sondheims lyrics. Who'd want to miss that because it's in another language?

[Yero my Hero]

Posted: 12/27/08 at 3:53pm

Sondheim has said that he did not use much symbolism in his WSS lyrics because it was not appropriate for an uneducated Puerto Rican immigrant girl, and because Bernstein's gorgeous music fulfilled that for him. So what are you missing out on?

I didn't mean that I was specifically arguing with you. I did not mean to call you ignorant, I'm sorry if that's how you read that. I was arguing with that general *argument* which, to me, reads closed-minded. You were just the one who responded, so it ended up being a discussion between the two of us, even though it was not initially directed at you.

I'm leaving my house for the day, but I really want to continue this discussion with you later, if we can do it rationally and without insults.

Updated On: 12/27/08 at 03:53 PM

[beltingbaritone]

Posted: 12/27/08 at 3:53pm

"And as beltingbaritone said, there's Symbolism, literary devices, etc., in Sondheims lyrics. Who'd want to miss that because it's in another language?"

Haha, not the point I was trying to make, but a good one none-the-less. The fact is though, some people won't understand the songs in their entirety even when they're in English. Some people just don't get Sondheim. So not everyone is going to understand every show. I think the artistic choice to inlclude Spanish is much more powerful. But that's just my preference. Its not going to work for everyone, but I really hope they keep it in. =)

[sondheimgeek]

Posted: 12/27/08 at 3:55pm

"For one thing, it's not awkward because the scene preceding it, with Maria and the girls, is in Spanish."

That makes it even worse. How am I supposed to know that she's in love? If it's in spanish, for all I know when she see's Tony at the dance she could stop and stare because he's her long lost twin brother from planet mars.

Again, I'm not trying to make you mad. That has not been my intention.

I never said I wouldn't see this production. In fact, I want to very badly. But I'm just questioning how it will affect my, and the understanding of others with the new language. That's all.

I would love to continue this discussion later on. But of course, peacefully.

And when I said I wouldn't want to miss Sondheim's lyrics I should've used a different phrase. I know he didn't write symbolism filled lyrics for this particular show. My point in the argument is not soley against WSS. I just mean I wouldn't want to miss anyones lyrics in general.

I think the Spanish does enhance it. I'm just wondering to what extent the spanish will affect basic understanding. That's all.

Updated On: 12/27/08 at 03:55 PM

[JustAGuy]

Posted: 12/27/08 at 3:55pm

"I'm arguing with people who are refusing to see the production, and even bashing it, simply because a couple songs are in Spanish. That, to me, sounds like a stubborn, closed mind, and I should not have to defend myself for trying to open it."

It's no more stubborn or closed minded than you insisting that someone must view theatre the same way that you do. And if they don't then they aren't using their brains.


"I'm sorry if I got frustrated for hearing the same argument over and over again which, to me, makes no sense at all, and said something vaguely offensive.

And yet you continue to give the same argument over and over again. So...how is that any different from others doing the same?

Vaguely offensive??? No... considerably more than that.

[beltingbaritone]

Posted: 12/27/08 at 3:59pm

Maybe its just something that has to be experienced. It may be a very beautiful artistic moment in theater. Or maybe it will just leave people scratching their heads. Only one way to find out...=)

[Yero my Hero]

Posted: 12/27/08 at 3:59pm

I at least try to rephrase my arguments, or explain them differently. I don't see that happening in the "OMG teh Spanish!!!!" comments.

I just don't see why I it's not okay to want to understand more than the basics?

It is perfectly okay. More than okay. I'm just saying, from the point of view of the director and the production, it is probably okay if the average audience member walks away thinking "She's happy because she's in love," versus "She feels pretty because she's in love." If you want to understand more than basics, by all means go home and look up the song and understand more. But the director probably doesn't care one way or another, and for the purpose of the plot and the message, I don't think that's a substantial enough distinction to matter much at that moment.

[JustAGuy]

Posted: 12/27/08 at 4:10pm

"I at least try to rephrase my arguments, or explain them differently. I don't see that happening in the "OMG teh Spanish!!!!" comments."

Well...you are the one that is all about context. So does it really matter how you rephrase them?

"I'm just saying, from the point of view of the director and the production, it is probably okay if the average audience member walks away thinking "She's happy because she's in love," versus "She feels pretty because she's in love."

"But the director probably doesn't care one way or another, and for the purpose of the plot and the message, I don't think that's a substantial enough distinction to matter much at that moment."

Hopefully, you aren't a director.

[jacobtsf]

Posted: 12/27/08 at 4:27pm

I have not seen the show but some of my friends have and from what they tell me the Spanish makes the Sharks human instead of the evil characters that they have always been considered. When you watch them speak Spanish you feel for the kids thrown into a strange place. They have their own unique culture, just like the Jets.

I echo Yero's statement that the main complaint I am hearing from people who have not seen the show is that the language will be a problem (notice I say will and not might). They refuse to give the show a chance because of language and it reeks of racism.

I am not saying the show will be perfect, I am not a huge fan of Laurents and the casting seems iffy, but the Spanish seems like the best part of the show. I do not like the idea of surtitles and am glad they are gone. People all over the world listen to music and watch movies, tv and theatre in languages other than their native one. Americans have a huge problem accepting the idea that the world does not revolve around them, and that is what I am feeling reading through this thread.

Sorry for the rambling and thank you for reading.

[JustAGuy]

Posted: 12/27/08 at 5:11pm

"They refuse to give the show a chance because of language and it reeks of racism."

Isn't it funny how people read threads differently? I haven't sensed the least bit of racism in this thread. I don't think it's racist to question the use of Spanish. I think if we were hearing reports that the Spanish had been seamlessly interpolated into the script and everyone was understanding everything that is happening in the performance. Then there would be little or no discussion about it at all.

But instead, some people, (some whom I consider very knowledgeable) have seen it and have commented that the Spanish isn't working for them. NOT BECAUSE IT'S SPANISH, but because they don't understand it, or find it confusing or both. How can you insinuate that someone is a racist for complaining that they don't understand or find the foreign language confusing?

I've read through this thread twice...I didn't find anyone saying that they wouldn't see WSS because there is now Spanish in it, but instead I've seen people concerned that they or people who will be attending with them, might not understand everything that is going on. Which to my mind is a reasonable concern and not the least bit racist.

Updated On: 12/27/08 at 05:11 PM

[beltingbaritone]

Posted: 12/27/08 at 5:35pm

I think the surtitles were a good idea, personally. I didn't see how they worked of course.

And JustAGuy, I don't think Yero and Jacbob are referring to just this thread. There have been people totally dismissing the show for that reason. Its not a personal attack.

[JustAGuy]

Posted: 12/27/08 at 5:41pm

I know it's not a personal attack.

I commented because he posted his remarks in this thread. I haven't read all of the WSS story threads, so I may have missed what he was referring to, but I find no instance of racism in this thread.

[My Oh My]

Posted: 12/27/08 at 5:45pm

So I guess all Puerto Rican immigrants are uneducated morons who could only be portrayed believably by having them sing in Spanish? Give me a break.

I thought theatre was all about suspension of belief? Just because Sondheim said that the English lyrics to "I Feel Pretty" are too clever for a PR to come up with, doesn't mean he's right. The whole Spanish thing sounds like a gimmick to me.

[jacobtsf]

Posted: 12/27/08 at 5:46pm

JAG

After rereading the thread I must say I was wrong about this particular thread, but I know I have read it on other threads. I have no problem with those who have seen it and found it to not work, I have a problem with those who just dismiss it without seeing it.

However, the argument that someone not understanding a language equals someone not understanding what is happening is a sign of ignorance and the American-superiority complex I spoke of earlier (please note I am not grouping everyone into this group. There have been many who said that the spanish moments did not work due to acting choices or direction. This is a good argument. There have also been those who shut off the minute the actors began speaking Spanish, this is who I am speaking out against.

Which is more important: the spoken word or the emotion behind the spoken word?I can say a line with two different emotions and have two different meanings. It is the emotion that drives a story.

I will end this with a short personal experience. I recently watched a film in French that had no subtitles. I do not speak French (except for "je ne parle pas francais") and yet I understood what was happening the entire time. It is up to the actors and director to make sure they are telling the story in a way everyone can understand.

[JustAGuy]

Posted: 12/27/08 at 6:09pm

"However, the argument that someone not understanding a language equals someone not understanding what is happening is a sign of ignorance and the American-superiority complex I spoke of earlier (please note I am not grouping everyone into this group."

Only if they are being willful in not trying to understand the story. If they simply tune out whenever Spanish is spoken, I might agree with you. But, if they are attempting to understand but can't, then I think it's unfair to call them ignorant or with some sort of superiority complex.

"Which is more important: the spoken word or the emotion behind the spoken word?I can say a line with two different emotions and have two different meanings. It is the emotion that drives a story.

I'd give them equal weight. Emotion can only take you so far, then you have to start making decisions as to the what and why of those emotions, and those decisions may or may not be correct. Without the words...you're only guessing. Sometimes correctly...sometimes not. I prefer to make my decisions based not only on the emotion, but on the dialog as well.

"...and yet I understood what was happening the entire time. It is up to the actors and director to make sure they are telling the story in a way everyone can understand."

I'm guessing that you got the gist of the film...I wouldn't be so sure that you caught all of the nuance that language brings. As I've said earlier...some are satisfied with getting the big picture...others seek more. Neither is right or wrong. But I don't think one can be faulted for wanting more.

It's rare the people quote their favorite emotion from a play or movie. It's usually a line.

Updated On: 12/27/08 at 06:09 PM

[jacobtsf]

Posted: 12/27/08 at 6:20pm

JAG, many on here dismissed the revival as soon as they heard it would incorporate Spanish. Forgive me for assuming that many of the complaints that are arising now stem from those earlier discussions.

And to counter your "favorites" argument: would it still be a favorite if it were not for the emotion behind the line (or the percieved emotion when reading a play)

This is a very interesting conversation and I will come back to it but I have to leave for a few hours.

[JustAGuy]

Posted: 12/27/08 at 6:33pm

"JAG, many on here dismissed the revival as soon as they heard it would incorporate Spanish. Forgive me for assuming that many of the complaints that are arising now stem from those earlier discussions."

Assume away. But, I don't think that that eliminates the reasoning of the other arguments.


"And to counter your "favorites" argument: would it still be a favorite if it were not for the emotion behind the line (or the percieved emotion when reading a play)"

Which is why I don't think one should rely on emotion alone to be a satisfactory way of telling a story. In a play or movie emotion only takes you so far, the words get you the rest of the way or vice versa. For me...I need both. One just won't do.

Updated On: 12/27/08 at 06:33 PM

[beltingbaritone]

Posted: 12/27/08 at 6:38pm

"I thought theatre was all about suspension of belief? Just because Sondheim said that the English lyrics to "I Feel Pretty" are too clever for a PR to come up with, doesn't mean he's right. The whole Spanish thing sounds like a gimmick to me."

Well they're his lyrics, so I guess he can do what he want.

I thinkt that in the instances that Spanish is being used, its an emotianlly driven scene. Take "I Feel Pretty", since it seems to be a favorite. What is the importance the audience is supposed to take from the song? That Maria is in love. Love is an emotion. By adding the Spanish, you're forced, in a way, to disregard words and just feel what Maria is feeling. Its not a song thats put in there to illustrate events. If the actress is doing her job, you won't be watching someone convey an emotion anymore, you'll be feeling it along with her. I think that by taking away the English lyrics, they're trying to add not only a sense or realism, but also, a different emotional level.

Just because you'd like to know what they're saying, doesn't mean you don't have too to know what's happening. And that's not meant to be snarky, its just that its not absolutely necessary. You don't get the exact dialogue but in turn you get something much more valuable (at least in my opinion anyways).

[My Oh My]

Posted: 12/27/08 at 6:54pm

I'm fluent in Spanish, so it's not about wanting to understand what they're saying. I think Sondheim was being way critical of his own lyrics to "I Feel Pretty." Why isn't it believable to have a Puerto Rican immigrant sing them? I don't find them overly sophisticated to begin with, even for someone like Maria who's English isn't perfect. I think they're misguided in their attempts to come off "authentic."

[miss pennywise]

Posted: 12/27/08 at 7:02pm

Jacob, regarding the French film you saw...

If the movie had been made with the intent to show the finished product without subtitles, the director, writer, actors and so forth would have made significant decisions during the filming to effect the desired outcome.

In this new production of WSS, for the first week, the surtitles were projected on the sides of the stage to interpret for the audience what the Spanish-speaking characters were saying. Then, suddenly, the surtitles were gone, yet everything else stayed the same. This is the problem.

I am sure that Mr. Laurents is working through this dilemma by revising the action, the dialogue, the blocking and so on. Remember, these are the pre-Broadway tryouts.

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 12/27/08 at 8:12pm

My guffaw for the day: http://talkinbroadway.com/allthatchat/d.php?id=1666935

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 12/27/08 at 8:40pm

I didn't know SweetQ was a member of ATC.

And you can keep feeling that way until you get off your high horse...I'm willing to use my brain in theatre. That comes naturally when being a Sondheim fan.

Oh, the irony.

Updated On: 12/27/08 at 08:40 PM

[beltingbaritone]

Posted: 12/27/08 at 9:08pm

See, where I'm excited that they're intergrating Spanish, I think the surtitles were a good idea. I can't comment on how distracting they actually were, but I don't think they could have been that bad. Then again, I'm a nerd who watches everything in Japanese. I can read subtitles and still pay attention to action like nobody else's business.

[sondheimgeek]

Posted: 12/27/08 at 10:11pm

"Oh, the irony."

Really, how? I never said I was better than anyone because I am a Sondheim fan. I simply said that being a Sondheim fan means you do use your brain in the theatre. Can you honestly tell me that you can absent mindedly sit through one of his shows and still understand every emotion and nuance through his music?

That's not saying that being a Sondheim fan means you're better than anyone. But thank you for trying to humour yourself at my expense.

"However, the argument that someone not understanding a language equals someone not understanding what is happening is a sign of ignorance and the American-superiority complex I spoke of earlier "

I hope you don't mean me. I don't have "American-superiority". I'm not against the addition of language. I think it strengthens it, but I feel it should not get to a point where it affects the understanding of others. I hope you don't find that racist of me.

And this is not meant to be offensive, but all I here about now is "American-superiority". This isn't aimed at you, it's just that you've mentioned it twice. Honestly, there are some Americans who don't respect the cultures of others. But there are also plenty of foreigners who feel the same way about their countries. It's a universal thing, not just American. But enough about that little rant...

As for the spanish, I'm excited to see it incorporated. I just don't want it to surpass the production. I don't want the production to become about the Spanish, and I can't effectively decide until I see it. That is why I haven't made a decision, but merely am speculating it's impact on the show. That's all.

Updated On: 12/27/08 at 10:11 PM