#76
Posted: 12/26/08 at 1:21pm
Color me crazy, but I think it’s sort of messed up to marginalize Sondheim lyrics to “so what” level…
More Photos From West Side Story DC Production — Page 4
#77
Posted: 12/26/08 at 1:24pm
He's working with Lin on the translations. It's not like this is all being done without his consent. His lyrics are still there, just in a different form, and I'm saying it's okay if some audiences don't understand every word of it.
If Sondheim is okay with it, why aren't you?
If Sondheim is okay with it, why aren't you?
Nothing matters but knowing nothing matters. ~ Wicked
Everything in life is only for now. ~ Avenue Q
There is no future, there is no past. I live this moment as my last. ~ Rent
"He's a tramp, but I love him."
Everything in life is only for now. ~ Avenue Q
There is no future, there is no past. I live this moment as my last. ~ Rent
#78
Posted: 12/26/08 at 1:28pm
'cause the fans always know best!
A work of art is an invitation to love.
#79
Posted: 12/26/08 at 1:30pm
Of course! How could I forget? :-P
Nothing matters but knowing nothing matters. ~ Wicked
Everything in life is only for now. ~ Avenue Q
There is no future, there is no past. I live this moment as my last. ~ Rent
"He's a tramp, but I love him."
Everything in life is only for now. ~ Avenue Q
There is no future, there is no past. I live this moment as my last. ~ Rent
#80
Posted: 12/26/08 at 1:40pm
I'm sure the surtitles were agreed upon when translation began, if a fraction of the audience is being left in the dark I doubt Sondheim OR Laurents are thrilled.
I have no problem with the concept and think that it only adds to the show to have authentic Spanish spoken in those scenes, but if the surtitles are removed it should not be to the deficit of the story.
I have no problem with the concept and think that it only adds to the show to have authentic Spanish spoken in those scenes, but if the surtitles are removed it should not be to the deficit of the story.
#81
Posted: 12/26/08 at 1:54pm
Maybe they're figuring out how to rework the surtitles so they're not distracting and they'll eventually put them back in. You don't know that they're cut entirely.
Nothing matters but knowing nothing matters. ~ Wicked
Everything in life is only for now. ~ Avenue Q
There is no future, there is no past. I live this moment as my last. ~ Rent
"He's a tramp, but I love him."
Everything in life is only for now. ~ Avenue Q
There is no future, there is no past. I live this moment as my last. ~ Rent
#82
Posted: 12/26/08 at 2:10pm
I've watched countless musicals in Japanese, so for me, I suppose that I would prefer not knowing every word but feeling the scene instead. Of course I would like both, but you definitely do not need to know every word to know what's going on. An actor should be able to be absolutely silent and still paint a scene before you. Maybe its not being directed to suit the new Spanish text, or maybe the actors have not settled into it yet, but it is very possible. Understanding is very possible.
Men don't even belt.
#83
Posted: 12/26/08 at 8:32pm
Boy between some casting, costumes, staging, language....not many people who have seen the show in DC are liking this production.
Have you been reading the posts from people who actually saw it? I don't think anyone who has seen it has had as much a problem with the show as those who haven't and are judging it solely based on secondhand knowledge and 6 production pictures.
I've watched countless musicals in Japanese, so for me, I suppose that I would prefer not knowing every word but feeling the scene instead.
Too many people here seem to have disregarded this point. Not only those speaking fluent English attend theatre. Foreign tourists in New York see Broadway shows all the time, because the experience of live theatre is more than merely understand every single word spoken onstage. If they can continue to attend theatre in droves when it's performed entirely in a language they don't understand, arrogant Americans should be able figure out what happens in two songs and a handful of conversations in one of the most popular musicals, based on the most popular play in history.
Have you been reading the posts from people who actually saw it? I don't think anyone who has seen it has had as much a problem with the show as those who haven't and are judging it solely based on secondhand knowledge and 6 production pictures.
I've watched countless musicals in Japanese, so for me, I suppose that I would prefer not knowing every word but feeling the scene instead.
Too many people here seem to have disregarded this point. Not only those speaking fluent English attend theatre. Foreign tourists in New York see Broadway shows all the time, because the experience of live theatre is more than merely understand every single word spoken onstage. If they can continue to attend theatre in droves when it's performed entirely in a language they don't understand, arrogant Americans should be able figure out what happens in two songs and a handful of conversations in one of the most popular musicals, based on the most popular play in history.
Like a firework unexploded
Wanting life but never knowing how
Wanting life but never knowing how
#84
Posted: 12/26/08 at 8:37pm
Good point, orangeskittles. I never even thought about that.
Men don't even belt.
#85
Posted: 12/26/08 at 8:55pm
"Too many people here seem to have disregarded this point."
Only because it doesn't apply to everyone. What works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another. If you're happy with just getting the gist of something as opposed to the literal conversation, then great, you need not ask for more. And will no doubt be perfectly happy with WSS in it's current state. But some people aren't satisfied with that. Some want to know what people are actually saying...not just inferring or guessing about what they might be saying and there is nothing wrong with wanting that.
Yes, most of us know what Romeo and Juliet is about. I frankly would prefer to hear the balcony scene with Shakespeare's words, you on the other hand might be perfectly fine hearing it in Pig Latin. Different strokes. Different expectations. There is really no right or wrong. It's going to boil down to personal preference.
Only because it doesn't apply to everyone. What works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another. If you're happy with just getting the gist of something as opposed to the literal conversation, then great, you need not ask for more. And will no doubt be perfectly happy with WSS in it's current state. But some people aren't satisfied with that. Some want to know what people are actually saying...not just inferring or guessing about what they might be saying and there is nothing wrong with wanting that.
Yes, most of us know what Romeo and Juliet is about. I frankly would prefer to hear the balcony scene with Shakespeare's words, you on the other hand might be perfectly fine hearing it in Pig Latin. Different strokes. Different expectations. There is really no right or wrong. It's going to boil down to personal preference.
"Just a Guy. Your feelings are touching. I am gladdened by the thought that you will one day wind up 6 feet under as we all do." - MrRoxy ------
"I do not suggest you walk out the door onto a New York street with your vulnerable child part exposed and not protected..." - Jason Bennett
#86
Posted: 12/26/08 at 9:20pm
I agree with what you're saying JustAGuy. The question is: are the actors being directed well enough to illustrate the scene to the audience so they understand as much as they possibly can?
Men don't even belt.
#87
Posted: 12/26/08 at 10:41pm
I think that is also the difference between this and Piazza. With the elimination of surtitles, it sounds like there is not effort to clue in the audience on what is going on. It is also from a source material that was originally in English, so there is the element of feeling as though we're "missing out" on something (i.e Sondheim's lyrics, unlike Piazza's songs in Italian which were written that way).
The the answer to your question is "no" if there are posters on here clearly stating that if you were not well versed in the original WSS, you were left in the dark.
The the answer to your question is "no" if there are posters on here clearly stating that if you were not well versed in the original WSS, you were left in the dark.
#88
Posted: 12/26/08 at 10:53pm
I agree with JustAGuy. If your fine with it, then so be it. But if I'm watching a scene like "I Feel Pretty" and it's in another language, how am I supposed to know why she is feeling pretty? How am I even supposed to know she feels pretty as opposed to just happy?
I understand what you're saying Orangeskittles, but I would rather be able to understand more than not. Language mixed in is fine, but only to a point where it does not limit the understanding of others.
I understand what you're saying Orangeskittles, but I would rather be able to understand more than not. Language mixed in is fine, but only to a point where it does not limit the understanding of others.
"Light the candles! Get the ice out! Roll the rug up, it's today!"
#89
Posted: 12/26/08 at 11:04pm
I think that is also the difference between this and Piazza. With the elimination of surtitles, it sounds like there is not effort to clue in the audience on what is going on. It is also from a source material that was originally in English, so there is the element of feeling as though we're "missing out" on something (i.e Sondheim's lyrics, unlike Piazza's songs in Italian which were written that way).
You describe perfectly what I've been thinking (but unable to put into words). Comparing this production with PIAZZA is apples to oranges because of the way the show was originally written to be performed.
You describe perfectly what I've been thinking (but unable to put into words). Comparing this production with PIAZZA is apples to oranges because of the way the show was originally written to be performed.
#90
Posted: 12/27/08 at 12:15am
I actually made an effort to look up the translation for (or in one case, even have my friend's Italian grandmother translate) a lot of the Italian in LitP because I wanted to know exactly what was going on.
Jimmy, what are you doing here in the middle of the night? It's almost 9 PM!
#91
Posted: 12/27/08 at 9:29am
very neat!!!! thanks for posting!!!!!
#92
Posted: 12/27/08 at 2:57pm
But if I'm watching a scene like "I Feel Pretty" and it's in another language, how am I supposed to know why she is feeling pretty? How am I even supposed to know she feels pretty as opposed to just happy?
Two words: Con. Text.
When you watch the entire musical, if you actually pay attention, is it really that hard to understand that she is singing because she is in love? And does it really matter whether she feels pretty or happy? We know she feels pretty because of the original song, but either way, you get the idea.
Seriously, it's not that hard. I feel like I'm the only one willing to use my brain when I see theater.
Two words: Con. Text.
When you watch the entire musical, if you actually pay attention, is it really that hard to understand that she is singing because she is in love? And does it really matter whether she feels pretty or happy? We know she feels pretty because of the original song, but either way, you get the idea.
Seriously, it's not that hard. I feel like I'm the only one willing to use my brain when I see theater.
Nothing matters but knowing nothing matters. ~ Wicked
Everything in life is only for now. ~ Avenue Q
There is no future, there is no past. I live this moment as my last. ~ Rent
"He's a tramp, but I love him."
Everything in life is only for now. ~ Avenue Q
There is no future, there is no past. I live this moment as my last. ~ Rent
#93
Posted: 12/27/08 at 3:08pm
"Two words: Con. Text."
As opposed to context, which is one word?
Obviously I would understand that she is "happy" because she is in love. But, what if I didn't? What if I just felt left in the dark because I have no clue what they're saying?
If someone came up to me right now and started talking to me in German, and was smiling, should I know exactly what they mean? I can understand that they're happy, but I don't know why that person is happy. I can guess, but I'd feel just left in the dark.
"Seriously, it's not that hard. I feel like I'm the only one willing to use my brain when I see theater. "
And you can keep feeling that way until you get off your high horse.
I'm willing to use my brain in theatre. That comes naturally when being a Sondheim fan. But just because I understand the emotion doesn't mean I understand why. There's a reason there's dialouge in shows: to give more insight into the situations.
As opposed to context, which is one word?
Obviously I would understand that she is "happy" because she is in love. But, what if I didn't? What if I just felt left in the dark because I have no clue what they're saying?
If someone came up to me right now and started talking to me in German, and was smiling, should I know exactly what they mean? I can understand that they're happy, but I don't know why that person is happy. I can guess, but I'd feel just left in the dark.
"Seriously, it's not that hard. I feel like I'm the only one willing to use my brain when I see theater. "
And you can keep feeling that way until you get off your high horse.
I'm willing to use my brain in theatre. That comes naturally when being a Sondheim fan. But just because I understand the emotion doesn't mean I understand why. There's a reason there's dialouge in shows: to give more insight into the situations.
"Light the candles! Get the ice out! Roll the rug up, it's today!"
Updated On: 12/27/08 at 03:08 PM
#94
Posted: 12/27/08 at 3:18pm
Hearing "I Feel Pretty" in Spanish is clearly different than a woman coming up to and randomly speaking German. When you see the scene in the context of the show, it is pretty clear that she is happy because she is in love with Tony. You said yourself that you would not having a problem understanding that.
If someone does not know the show and hears "I Feel Pretty," in English, with no context, that person would have no idea why she is singing about being pretty. You have to see the rest of the musical to say, "Oh, I get it, it's because of Tony." Same here, only it's in Spanish, so it requires a tiny bit more effort.
There is plenty of English dialogue. Enough for you to understand what is going on in the Spanish scenes. Again, completely different from your "analogy" of a show completely in mime.
I'll get off my high horse when you learn to effectively use analogies.
Guess we'll both be here for a while.
If someone does not know the show and hears "I Feel Pretty," in English, with no context, that person would have no idea why she is singing about being pretty. You have to see the rest of the musical to say, "Oh, I get it, it's because of Tony." Same here, only it's in Spanish, so it requires a tiny bit more effort.
There is plenty of English dialogue. Enough for you to understand what is going on in the Spanish scenes. Again, completely different from your "analogy" of a show completely in mime.
I'll get off my high horse when you learn to effectively use analogies.
Guess we'll both be here for a while.
Nothing matters but knowing nothing matters. ~ Wicked
Everything in life is only for now. ~ Avenue Q
There is no future, there is no past. I live this moment as my last. ~ Rent
"He's a tramp, but I love him."
Everything in life is only for now. ~ Avenue Q
There is no future, there is no past. I live this moment as my last. ~ Rent
Updated On: 12/27/08 at 03:18 PM
#95
Posted: 12/27/08 at 3:27pm
I was looking at the cast but who the heck is the character Kiddo supposed to be? is he new to the script?
#96
Posted: 12/27/08 at 3:27pm
"Seriously, it's not that hard. I feel like I'm the only one willing to use my brain when I see theater."
Yes, it's true you are the ONLY ONE using their brain while seeing theatre. Everyone else isn't. It's obvious. Congratulations, you win the USING YOUR BRAIN prize.
Now, how about using your brain and realize that not everyone views theatre the same way that you do. Nor should they have to. Why should everyone have to be satisfied with viewing theatre they way you view it?
CON TEXT doesn't always work. What if the lyrics were meant to be ironic, or sarcastic or sung as parody? How would someone who doesn't speak the language know that without some sort of translation?
What if someone who's seeing and hearing WSS for the FIRST time...doesn't know the title of the song is I FEEL PRETTY. Feeling HAPPY is not the same as feeling pretty. And for some people that matters. You've already established that it doesn't matter to you. CUZ YOU USE YOUR BRAIN.
Seriously, with that big brain of yours it can't be that hard to realize that not everyone is like you.
Yes, it's true you are the ONLY ONE using their brain while seeing theatre. Everyone else isn't. It's obvious. Congratulations, you win the USING YOUR BRAIN prize.
Now, how about using your brain and realize that not everyone views theatre the same way that you do. Nor should they have to. Why should everyone have to be satisfied with viewing theatre they way you view it?
CON TEXT doesn't always work. What if the lyrics were meant to be ironic, or sarcastic or sung as parody? How would someone who doesn't speak the language know that without some sort of translation?
What if someone who's seeing and hearing WSS for the FIRST time...doesn't know the title of the song is I FEEL PRETTY. Feeling HAPPY is not the same as feeling pretty. And for some people that matters. You've already established that it doesn't matter to you. CUZ YOU USE YOUR BRAIN.
Seriously, with that big brain of yours it can't be that hard to realize that not everyone is like you.
"Just a Guy. Your feelings are touching. I am gladdened by the thought that you will one day wind up 6 feet under as we all do." - MrRoxy ------
"I do not suggest you walk out the door onto a New York street with your vulnerable child part exposed and not protected..." - Jason Bennett
#97
Posted: 12/27/08 at 3:34pm
I think what Yero is saying is that it works in this instance because you can tell what's happening from the context. It might not work for every show, but I'm thinking it works here. I haven't seen the show, but I've read reviews that say they do.
Men don't even belt.
#98
Posted: 12/27/08 at 3:35pm
You'll get off your high horse when I learn to effectively use analogies?
Fine. I'll respect that.
But please, tell me. If someone is in the dark about something in a show because it's in another language, are they not using their brains?
My point being is that just because YOU can put two and two together means nothing. Just because it works for YOU doesn't mean it works for everyone.
I said I'd still probably understand what was going on. You know why? Because I already know the show. If I didn't I'd probably be able to put two and two together, but that's all I'd understand. I'd only understand that she's in love and happy. Nothing more.
So, am I know stupid because I want to understand more than that? I'm still using my brain, it just so happens that I would like to understand more. Why is that so wrong?
"There is plenty of English dialogue. Enough for you to understand what is going on in the Spanish scenes."
Very good. As I said in my original post: "Language mixed in is fine, but only to a point where it does not limit the understanding of others."
I already had addressed that. My point in my original post was to say that having "I Feel Pretty" in Spanish would be fine as long as it doesn't impact the understanding of others.
Wouldn't it be awkward if she just burst out into a song that was completely in spanish? How would I know that she's singing about love?
Fine. I'll respect that.
But please, tell me. If someone is in the dark about something in a show because it's in another language, are they not using their brains?
My point being is that just because YOU can put two and two together means nothing. Just because it works for YOU doesn't mean it works for everyone.
I said I'd still probably understand what was going on. You know why? Because I already know the show. If I didn't I'd probably be able to put two and two together, but that's all I'd understand. I'd only understand that she's in love and happy. Nothing more.
So, am I know stupid because I want to understand more than that? I'm still using my brain, it just so happens that I would like to understand more. Why is that so wrong?
"There is plenty of English dialogue. Enough for you to understand what is going on in the Spanish scenes."
Very good. As I said in my original post: "Language mixed in is fine, but only to a point where it does not limit the understanding of others."
I already had addressed that. My point in my original post was to say that having "I Feel Pretty" in Spanish would be fine as long as it doesn't impact the understanding of others.
Wouldn't it be awkward if she just burst out into a song that was completely in spanish? How would I know that she's singing about love?
"Light the candles! Get the ice out! Roll the rug up, it's today!"
Updated On: 12/27/08 at 03:35 PM
#99
Posted: 12/27/08 at 3:39pm
I'm not arguing with peoplewho have seen the show and say that they didn't like it, it didn't work for them, whatever. I'm arguing with people who are refusing to see the production, and even bashing it, simply because a couple songs are in Spanish. That, to me, sounds like a stubborn, closed mind, and I should not have to defend myself for trying to open it.
I'm sorry if I got frustrated for hearing the same argument over and over again which, to me, makes no sense at all, and said something vaguely offensive. I should not have said that.
But I stand by everything else I said.
I'm sorry if I got frustrated for hearing the same argument over and over again which, to me, makes no sense at all, and said something vaguely offensive. I should not have said that.
But I stand by everything else I said.
Nothing matters but knowing nothing matters. ~ Wicked
Everything in life is only for now. ~ Avenue Q
There is no future, there is no past. I live this moment as my last. ~ Rent
"He's a tramp, but I love him."
Everything in life is only for now. ~ Avenue Q
There is no future, there is no past. I live this moment as my last. ~ Rent
#100
Posted: 12/27/08 at 3:41pm
But we also have to taken into account that other's may not understand the entirety of every show either. For example, Sondheim's lyrics are filled with symbolism, literary devices, etc. that may make the song not easily understandable for somebody who doesn't connect. So I suppose it could be said for a lot of theater; some people just won't get it.
I understand where you're coming from, that the audience is missing dialogue that adds to the plot. But I'm thinking Laurents mindset is that the artistic choice of adding the Spanish trumps the possibility that some people won't connect.
I understand where you're coming from, that the audience is missing dialogue that adds to the plot. But I'm thinking Laurents mindset is that the artistic choice of adding the Spanish trumps the possibility that some people won't connect.
Men don't even belt.
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