My Thoughts On PAL JOEY- Page 3

[ray-andallthatjazz86]

Posted: 11/17/08 at 10:57am

Donna Murphy is really as ideal for Vera as it gets, I'd have loved to see Peters in it too though. Did they both pass on committing to the revival, Somethingwicked?
Can't believe Hoff didn't get dropped somewhere along the line between workshop and full-blown revival.

[philcrosby]

Posted: 11/17/08 at 11:36am

How lovely it would have been to see the revival where Bob Fosse played Joey. Talk about perfect.

[somethingwicked]

Posted: 11/17/08 at 11:40am

ray-andallthatjazz, yes.

Both Peters and Murphy expressed to the creative team that they would would not be interested in participating in a full scale production of the show (though it wasn't directly stated, I think it's easy to infer that neither would find fulfillment in doing a titular character musical where they aren't the star.)

When Stockard Channing was cast as Vera for the final workshop, it was with the knowledge that Peters and Murphy weren't interested, at which point she became the first choice for the role.

There are several notable leading ladies (Christine Ebersole, Barbara Walsh, and Marin Mazzie amongst them) who I'd love to see tackle Vera, but Channing is doing just fine, albeit vocally unthrilling.

Updated On: 11/17/08 at 11:40 AM

[PalJoey]

Posted: 11/17/08 at 2:26pm

Bob Fosse, around the time he played Joey:

"I Love a Piano" with Carol Haney
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCF0WIt7MAc

With George Burns and fellow hoofer Harrison Muller:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=db6lyqZGo0w

[hubee]

Posted: 11/17/08 at 2:56pm

I just saw it last night and after reading the boards I knew to expect a subpar Joey but Christian Hoff wasn't THAT bad. Okay, his singing was rough but his dancing was fine and I actually thought he acted the role right on, balancing the schmarminess of the character with a certain allure. Still, the songs were basically too low for his voice (I thought he was fine in the upper registers but there was few of that).

Stockard's acting made up for her singing (kinda like Janney in 9 to 5) but as everyone has been saying, Martha Plimpton steals the show. She's simply AMAZING. I never really expected her to knock a musical role out of the park that way.

Felner is pretty good too with her smallish role.

Overall I still enjoyed the revival (great set and costumes btw) more than I thought I would.

Posted: 11/17/08 at 6:52pm

Those Kelly clips are great--wasit the PBS miniseries docu abotu Broadway Musicals that also had clips of home movies of the Girls doing a number? I'd die to see more of the original production.

[mc1227]

Posted: 11/17/08 at 7:09pm

I totally agree that Jeff Denman can pull this role off. He can sing, dance and is very charismatic.

[kdek004]

Posted: 11/18/08 at 2:26pm

Do you guys think Saturday night will be difficult to get student rush tickets or am I better off getting the Playbill discount and guaranteeing a seat?

[wexy]

Posted: 11/18/08 at 8:50pm

I'm going Friday and won't read the thread until Saturday.

[fflagg]

Posted: 11/18/08 at 11:54pm

Stockard Channing and Martha Plimpton give Tony-caliber performances. Channing breaks your heart as the older woman who has seen a lot and feels like sweet seventeen a lot. Her acting and singing are totally appropriate and quite compelling. "Bewitched" will break your heart.

Plimpton is also wonderful even though the tempo is too fast for "Zip" thereby not giving her the showstopper she deserves. Sassy, a bit sad, and a bit desperate, Plimpton is prime for Charity and for Phyllis when she is 50. :)

The major disappointment is Hoff who has no sex appeal, no charisma, and cannot really carry a tune. A male Karen Ziemba if you will. He will sell no tickets. The costumes have more pizazz than he does; he works awfully hard [see him wipe off the sweat early in Act One] to please and really does nothing to impress.

[jewishboy]

Posted: 11/19/08 at 12:24am

Thanks for the report. Looking foward to Channing and Plimpton, but stressing over Hoff (get an effin dancer!).

Oh, and let's be fair... Although I think she is one of the most boring actresses, dancers, or singers who gets work today, Ms. Ziemba is a good belter and can carry a tune (I've actually seen her do a very touching "Neverland" at one of the Encores! bashes, I was surprised how good it was). Sorry to change the subject...

[larry64]

Posted: 11/19/08 at 1:03am

If they don't re-cast Joey for this, they're going to have problems.

[ray-andallthatjazz86]

Posted: 11/19/08 at 1:08am

In the "old days" (yeah I know I wasn't there, but I've done lots of reading ) I imagine they would have re-cast the role right away. I highly doubt they would do that now. The main reason I doubt they'll re-cast the role is that the man has been performing the show in all these workshops, if they didn't let him go before, they certainly won't now. How could they not realize that he wasn't the part?

Updated On: 11/19/08 at 01:08 AM

[larry64]

Posted: 11/19/08 at 1:13am

"How could they not realize that he wasn't the part?"

2 words.

JOE

MANTELLO

[fflagg]

Posted: 11/19/08 at 7:53am

Hoff is prob a nice man and a hard worker. So let him do dinner theater. Unless he is dropping the soap for Mantello he should have realized that he is just too bland and "ordinary" for this part. Cheyenne would be too pretty and too fey to carry off the part. Hugh Jackman?

[PalJoey]

Posted: 11/19/08 at 8:03am

fflagg, once again, AS ALWAYS, you have dragged this discussion into a place that makes BroadwayWorld.com look like a bunch a cranks by inserting completely IRRELEVANT AND INSULTING comments about performers who have NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS REVIVAL.

At long last, man, have you no decency?

[BroadwayBaby6]

Posted: 11/21/08 at 6:32pm

Give Christian Hoff a chance. This show is still in previewsand for all we know he could be fighting off a cold or still getting his feet wet in the part. He may not be top-notch dancer but he's a very good actor and singer- and he should be fine by opening night.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 11/21/08 at 8:15pm

He may not be top-notch dancer but he's a very good actor and singer

That's the point that many of us are making: the material is not strong enough to be carried by an actor/singer: Joey is an unlikable character and the story and the songs support that.

It needs a song-and-dance man to charm us additionally with his dancing. That was the trick that made the O'Hara stories work as a musical. When the role is played by an actor-singer, the whole sgow falls apart.

[madbrian]

Posted: 11/21/08 at 8:19pm

Apologies for beating the same drum, but Tony Yazbek's reviews in On The Town at City Center seem to suggest that he'd do well in Pal Joey.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 11/21/08 at 9:11pm

He certainly has the triple-threat quality and the stud-to-women-young-and-old attraction.

And this performance and his performance as Tulsa have put him in the league.

Perhaps this this Pal Joey were being planned now, it would have been Tony and not Christian.

[wexy]

Posted: 11/22/08 at 2:25am

Just got back from the show and Roundabout after party
Nothing like waiting for the Q train at 57th st at one in the morning.
Every one thought it was OK. Martha Plimpton was wonderful
and the girls were good looking and the costumes were fine
Thought that there wasn't much chemistry there. Hoff was OK but not exciting. He was at the party and I spoke to him for a couple of minutes. (Mentioned the Times article today) he said that the cast is working to get ready for the opening which isn't until the 11th.

[onceadancer2]

Posted: 11/22/08 at 11:18am

After receiving a few nasty notes from someone on the board—class always shows, but was obviously lacking in this person, I decided not to write anymore. Look, I’m going to be 88 soon, and still have my marbles.

As I was in the original dancing corps of PAL JOEY, and if my mind is still in order, a few reminders and pointers about the show and what sounds terribly wrong about this show. And for all the nitpickers, I say “sounds” because I have not seen it.

The part of Vera Simpson was written very much with Vivienne Segal in mind. Lorenz hart especially knew her vocal range, her inflections, her movements, her way of comic delivery and what’s more important, her proper perspective of herself. Segal was one of the most under-rated people of the musical theatre. From what I’ve heard, she’s never been inducted into the Theater Hall of Fame. That’s an insult! But getting back to Segal, she had class. You can see it from the photographs of the old production. And her delivery of Bewitched, was the best you have ever heard. It was as if she were singing as a low down slut, who knew she was one, but came up in the world and could see both Joey’s and her perspective on life. And she was dressed in this hat as I can recall, which really added something special to her rendition . Everyone speaks of “Bewitched,” but for me the best part of the show was Vera and Linda’s “Take Him.” Everyone says George Abbott was a variable director, but here he made sure that the two women were at odds with each other: Linda practically crying as he knew he wqould give him up and Vera, standing very cool and correct, knowing that, like the Marschallin in Rosenkavalier, she would just move on to the next conquest. Her departure of Joey was not mawkish, just a “fare thee well, old chap, good riddance.” This moment is never talked about, but for me it was the best moment in the show.

Gene Kelly as Joey. I’ve been roasted, toasted, cursed at, threatened by one or two members of the board for saying that Kelly was not a good dancer. He was an adequate dancer, but to say he ranks on par with Astaire, is not a fair thing to say. Kelly liked to run and jump around the stage at a whirlwind pace. Also, Kelly was only 15 years younger than Segal. His partnering was terrible, whenever he had to take one of the girls by the hand he would squeeze it so hard that we usually hears an ouch or a leave me alone. Partnering was not his biggest asset. What he brought was sex appeal, but not great dancing or acting skills. And he had Robert Alton, who knew exactly how to show him off at his best. That’s a good choreographer. Cover all the deficits and show us the assets. That was Alton.

As for Kelly’s acting skills, they were nil. He was very lucky because when Abbott wasn’t criticizing him, Segal was rehearsing with him. In fact, Kelly’s success in the part was due to Segal’s teaching, coaching, importuning and nagging. She knew how to put him in his place and make his acting seem realistic, since Kelly at times seemed to think he was in a vaudeville show. Segal had her own troubles with Abbott, but she handled him with aplomb.

June Havoc was a terrific Gladys, as was Jean Casto who played Melba. Casto not only played Melba, but also was a standby for Vivienne Segal and, if memory serves me corrretly, was standby for Shirley Booth in My Sister Eileen. She had quite a job.
All in all, it was an excellent production, one of the best I was ever in. With all the usual fighting, bickering, etc., it came in on Christmas Eve with a bang, at least we thought it was coming in with one Critics were divided and, of course, you know the rest of the story.

So for those who want to throw tomatoes at me, go ahead. These old bones know a lot more than any of you.

And, oh yes, I put asterisks around my replies. That is the way I do things, and it is no one's business why I do it. I just like it. Would anyone like to argue with me. I will certainly gives you a lot more, ane believe me, I can give you more than everyone combined on this board.

Updated On: 11/22/08 at 11:18 AM

[allofmylife]

Posted: 11/22/08 at 1:54pm

Onceadancer2, how wonderful to have your input. There are people here who appreciate having someone with a real perspective from ONSTAGE adding to the discussion. You posting was a masterclass for a few of us.

I have basically quite broadwayworld.com because of the obscene comments I received due to my objection to Christian Hoff as Joey (and my I-can't-explain-why-but-I-just-do love for Legally Blonde) but I couldn't resist a schadenfreude moment of dropping in to see if a few of the people who had so vociferously defended Hoff had finally realized he is totally wrong for the role.

Sadly, this may be the only "Pal Joey" we'll see on Broadway. It could have been so much better.

Your comments on Kelly are interesting and eye-opening. If he truly wasn't a good dancer or a good actor and just an okay singer, he did one thing very well - he was a star. I suppose that special "It" that he had was an ability to make us go "wow" and not notice the flaws. We've seen many instances of people who had "It" but not technique. Look at James Cagney, who everyone knows was more of an eccentric dancer than a trained hoofer - yet I dare you to take your eyes off him when he danced. Ray Bolger was the same - totally self-taught and utterly unforgettable.

I for one would come back here again to read more of your excellent reminiscences. And By The Way, are you visible in the color footage I posted on youtube? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsvDiqzSUBQ)

Also a comment about Vivienne Segal. She was the original Margot in "The Desert Song" and Constance in "The Three Musketeers" so she obviously had a fantastic voice to star in opperettas by Romberg and Friml (and when was the lat time those names appeared on this site?) She brought an amazing talent to the role, far outstripping Stockard Channing who I really admire but not in this role.

This sounds to me like a vindication of what we've been saying all along.

[Q]

Posted: 11/22/08 at 2:44pm

OMG - having Onceadancer2 reappear has quite simply made my day!!!

So glad to know you're still around and kickin'!
Updated On: 11/22/08 at 02:44 PM

[best12bars]

Posted: 11/22/08 at 4:12pm

onceadancer2---Thanks so much for taking the time to post such a detailed perspective of what it was like to actually be there.

I literally read your post with a dropped jaw! I wish you would post more often. About past shows, current shows, and what you think the future might bring. People like you are the reason I came to BWW in the first place.

I hope you're not "bashed" for this post (or any other, for that matter). Even if people disagree with your thoughts, yours is a firsthand opinion, and very likely the only one we will get on the original production of Pal Joey.

I hope to see your posts in the future, if you feel like it. I will seek them out.

And thanks again for sharing with us.

...from one of the BWW posters who definitely cares about what you have to say!