Phantom of the Opera Question- Page 2

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 8/4/16 at 11:00pm

gypsy101 said: ""American constructions of race"? what does that even mean???

 

"

"Social construction" isn't some obscure term nor is it of my invention. It refers to how a culture defines a certain concept, in this case, race. In the United States, we have defined "blackness" as African and we have generally used what is called the "One Drop Rule" (an actual law in the past of some states), meaning if one had any traceable African ancestry, one was defined as "black". (In practice, people often went by appearance, but "One Drop" was the construction.)

Other countries had and have different systems. Some of the South American colonies thought of race not in terms of shade but of birth: Europeans, descendants of Europeans, Native Americans, and mixtures thereof. South Africa long divided race in terms of Europeans, Africans and "coloreds" (the latter mostly Hindus and Muslims).

Etc. and so forth. I don't know how a black singer would have been treated in 19th century Sweden, but she might not have been treated as "different" at all. We shouldn't assume she would face the same barriers she would have faced in, say, 19th century Virginia.

Thanks to worldwide DNA testing, scientists have concluded that race is ENTIRELY a social construction. The variations in the DNA of different groups is too trivial to be considered of scientific significance. This isn't to say race never matters, just that it's a cultural idea rather than a biological fact.

[AHLiebross]

Posted: 8/5/16 at 3:16am

Christine Daae was based on Christina Nilsson, an actual Swedish diva with blonde hair and blue eyes. A brown-haired Christine, as most are portrayed, could easily be the daughter of a Swedish father and a mother from Spain, Italy, or Portugal, but she is unlikely to be the daughter of two Scandinavian parents.

If a black woman plays Christine, the director has two choices: Ignore the actor's ethnicity, or play Christine as a woman with a Swedish father and an African mother. EIther would be fine, because Christine's ethnicity is irrelevant to the story.

I have often said that the Phantom should be viewed as a white character even when a black performer plays him. If the Phantom has experienced racial discrimination as well as cruelty because of his deformity, that changes the story. As a result, I view the Phantom as white, even when the incomparable Norm Lewis plays the role. I see only one other character in the show as automatically white, again regardless of who plays him: Raoul. A French nobleman would almost definitely have been a white man.

Even though I don't see race as a disqualification for playing any role in POTO, there are some characteristics that I deem disqualifying: Raoul has to be reasonably young and reasonably good-looking, and the Phantom shouldn't be overweight. The Phantom needs to be like a panther, full of energy, well-coordinated, and ready to pounce. An overweight Phantom wouldn't cut it for me.

Audrey Liebross (who has strong opinions on every Phantom issue)

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 8/5/16 at 4:00pm

AHL, have you read the thread? POTO takes place in Paris, where all black Frenchmen, including some colonials, were recognized as citizens in the late 18th century. If we must think in naturalistic terms, the Phantom could be the legitimate heir of a French nobleman and his African-Haitian wife.

But if you mean the Phantom "should be played as a white man" in that his race should be ignored, I agree. There's nothing "realistic" about the musical in the first place.

***

Though the average Swede may be blonder than the average Spaniard, not all Swedes have light hair and not all Spaniards have dark. You have some strange, absolutist ideas of ethnic characteristics. (FTR, I'm married to a second-generation Swede. My surname actually means "dark-hair, dark-complexion" in Gaelic, yet everyone in my family begins with blond hair and blue eyes.) If you live in NYC, check out the painted Egyptian friezes at the Met: you'll find a range of skin colors Hollywood never imagined.

***

As for your required physical characteristics, let me suggest you add that Raul should be tall. It was a revelation when 6'3" Michael Piontek took over the role in LA. His predecessor was gorgeous and sang like an angel, but was half Michael Crawford's height. I didn't notice until Piontek took over and suddenly the scenes where the Phantom and Raul meet became electrically charged because the two men suddenly seemed more equally matched.

[Phantom4ever]

Posted: 8/5/16 at 4:04pm

I always think about this when the "your face, Christine, it's white!" line comes up.  Surely that would sound silly with a darker skinned actress. I'm sure there's another adjective they could use 

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 8/5/16 at 4:10pm

^^^ I'm sure. Leontyne Price played Madame Butterfly 50 years ago. Surely musical theater audiences can catch up.

[AHLiebross]

Posted: 8/5/16 at 11:58pm

Gaveston, I had the same discussion with someone (probably you) under a different thread. I was pleasantly surprised to read, after that discussion, that most black people were treated as equals of whites in France. However, the Phantom did a lot of travelling, including through Russia and Turkey, and lived with Romani people and Persian people. He probably traveled all over Europe, and many countries were not as forward-looking as France.

Furthermore, even in France, I doubt that the French always lived up to "Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite" any more with black people than they did with Jews; the Dreyfuss affair was a key trigger for the Zionist movement, because Theodore Herzl and others reasoned that, if an innocent military officer could be railroaded in France merely because he was Jewish, antisemitism could occur anywhere.

My point is that a black Phantom would have been likely to encounter racism somewhere, and would be unlikely to blame his mistreatment ONLY on his face. (BTW, I think Eliza Doolittle has to be a white character for similar reasons). That's why I see the Phantom as a white character no matter who plays him. However, as you point out, the Phantom's race is not a big deal. Neither is Christine's.

I also agree with your comment that people don't always look like the stereotype of their ethnicity. Nevertheless, Scandinavian people are usually light, and people whose families originate in warmer climates are usually darker, since the melanin pigment protects skin from the sun. If a black Christine (again, the character, and not the actor) is the child of a Swedish father, her mother probably came from somewhere else.

While people don't always resemble an ethnic stereotype, there are general genetic differences among various populations. How else would DNA analysis be able to determine likely ethnicity of an individual's ancestors?

I still believe that there is a world of difference between casting only whites to play the Phantom (which I consider racial discrimination) and saying that, if a black actor plays the Phantom, he is playing a white man. "Hamilton" has taught us that a character need not take on the ethnicity of the performer.

[theaterlover5678]

Posted: 8/6/16 at 1:24pm

Am I still missing something here? It's literally the Phantom of the Opera where no dialogue is spoken and people are singing their lines. And we are concerned about historical accuracy why ??!?!?! it's a musical, not a documentary, not even a history play... Everyone needs to get their heads out of their behinds and wake the f*** up. If you are distracted by race when it is not relevant to the story, sorry to tell you but you are racist. 

[hork]

Posted: 8/6/16 at 2:20pm

theaterlover5678 said: "Am I still missing something here? It's literally the Phantom of the Opera where no dialogue is spoken and people are singing their lines. And we are concerned about historical accuracy why ??!?!?! it's a musical, not a documentary, not even a history play... Everyone needs to get their heads out of their behinds and wake the f*** up. If you are distracted by race when it is not relevant to the story, sorry to tell you but you are racist. 

 

Concern for historical accuracy is not racism, nor is it invalidated by singing actors. Calm down, nobody said they were distracted, anyway.

 

[AHLiebross]

Posted: 8/6/16 at 10:00pm

Theaterlover said: "It's literally the Phantom of the Opera where no dialogue is spoken and people are singing their lines. And we are concerned about historical accuracy why ??!?!?! "

I think historical accuracy, at least to a point, is important to any production, regardless of whether it is a sung-through over-the-top story such as POTO, or a rap musical, such as "Hamilton." We are willing to suspend disbelief in "Hamilton" about the characters' appearance and their speaking in rap. However, I doubt we'd be so forgiving if they changed something iconic, such as the colors of the US flag, or Jefferson's having written the Declaration of Independence. This is because "Hamilton" tries to accurately tell the story of the founding of our nation, while using creative means to do it.

The Claude Rains movie version of "The Phantom of the Opera" has numerous distracting anachronisms that make it almost impossible to figure out when the story takes place. The costuming is out of the 1920's or 30's, but there are other indications that the story takes place in the original era.

There has to be something that anchors a story to its time period. Costuming, set design, correct references to historical events, music, and other things can help establish the time period. Attitudes toward race, religion, or gender in the script can do the same. Once again, I emphasize that I disagree with the decision to cast only white people as white characters -- a tall, thin actor in a beard, wearing a stovepipe hat, is obviously portraying Lincoln, even if the actor is a person of color.

[A Director]

Posted: 8/7/16 at 10:30pm

AHL -  You are well meaning, but your comments about white and black roles/characters always give me a headache!   I am white and I find the following comment you made to be racist.

"I still believe that there is a world of difference between casting only whites to play the Phantom (which I consider racial discrimination) and saying that, if a black actor plays the Phantom, he is playing a white man."

Two days ago, I saw a production of Shakespeare's Richard II.  The actor who played John of Gaunt is a Latino.  The actor who played his son, Bolingbrook, is white.  The actor who played the Earl of Northumberland is black.  The actor who played his son is a Asian woman.  The actor who played the Duchess of Gloucester is a Latina.  Historically, all of these characters were white.

The production ran 3 hours.  Not once before the show, during it, and now, two days later, did I worry if any of these characters were white roles.  I was caught up in the production and admired the actors's performances.

Have you seen much Shakespeare onstage?  There are anachronisms in many of his plays.  He even changed history in some of his plays.  Would this a problem for you?

Do you know the play Chicago was set in the 1920s. The same is true of the original production of the musical.  Have you seen the production now playing on Broadway? Pray tell me, what time period does it take place?