Successful Shows which DIDN'T get nominated for Best musical?- Page 2

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 4/2/08 at 2:42am

HAl Prince's wife Judy once made the distinction...there are hits and flops (purely in financial terms) and successes and failures (in terms of a show's artistic achivement.) Prince considers PACIFIC OVERTURES a great successs..even though it was a flop.

[ray-andallthatjazz86]

Posted: 4/2/08 at 3:02am

It's just a purely financial term, so it is not only fair but accurate to call THOROUGHLY MODERN MILLIE a flop, as well as KISS OF THE SPIDERWOMAN, DIRTY ROTTEN SCOUNDRELS, WONDERFUL TOWN revival, and the '03 GYPSY revival, all shows that had decent runs and yet did not recoup their original investment.

[Humbert]

Posted: 4/2/08 at 9:30am

Just throwing this out there: is Variety an authoritative arbiter of linguistics? Because the organization that is in fact dedicated to the business and art of defining words, THE DICTIONARY, notes 'flop' as -

n. a complete and total failure

Some versions use complete, some use total, but NONE make the distinction between that of a financial failure or an artistic one.

Variety,in my opinion, while being a proven and reliable source of statistical information for the entertainment business trade is, when it comes to analyzing the ultimate success or failure of a show, past or present, not an authority. At the point in which a trade departs from statistics and takes editorial liberty with the definition of words, then that publication is neither right nor wrong, but simply stating an opinion.

I think their categories should simply be: RECOUPED INITIAL INVESTMENT and DID NOT RECOUP INITIAL INVESTMENT.

That would be much more objective than to use a word that truly means, in the minds of the masses, a total and complete, or utter, failure.

[Urban]

Posted: 4/2/08 at 10:01am

To me (personally and this is just me):

Flop - loses money regardless.
Bomb - The 'Carries' of this world.

[ErinDillyFan]

Posted: 4/2/08 at 10:30am

In "not since carrie", Ken Mandelbaum gave his definition that a flop must run less than 100 performances and lose money.

[BroadwayBen]

Posted: 4/2/08 at 10:55am

That is an antiquated way of looking at things. By that standard, every Sondheim musical except for "NIGHT MUSIC" was a flop, including Sweeney, which did eventually recoup after 15 years or so. Most people know that the odds of recouping on B'way are really tough. I remember reading MILLIE recouped something like 85 percent on Broadway, and that the tours were very profitable. I'll bet the B'way production has recouped by now.

And Tony nominations have nothing to do with it. I think all of this seasons nominees will find that the nominations -- and probably wins -- only give them a temporary bump. The winner is helped for the summer (SA), but that's about it.

[BroadwayBen]

Posted: 4/2/08 at 10:58am

p.s. When you have two of the most critically attacked in years musicals -- Little Mermaid and YF -- doing more than $1 million weekly, you need to look at things differently. The old rules of "meaning" -- critics and awards -- mean nothing any more. Same for films. All of the nominated films hardly grossed a thing in comparison to the summer blockbusters.

[jpbran]

Posted: 4/2/08 at 11:03am

"...walk into a northern Jersey Hih School and start singing Omigod Yoy Guys & see how many teens start singing with you"

And see how fast you are removed by security, and placed on a "watch" list.

[jpbran]

Posted: 4/2/08 at 11:07am

Oh, and I liked Aida (and realize its major flaws) but still would have picked it over what I believe won that year- Contact.

No singing, very little dialogue, pre-recorded music-- doesn't fit MY definition of a musical (or many others' definition) and I'd say Aida was more deserving, with Contact maybe getting some other kind of recognition.

Not a very original opinion, I know...

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 4/2/08 at 11:13am

Mister Matt I hate to be put in the position of defending Aida, but had it been nominated for best musical, there is not a shred of doubt that it would have won.

Perhaps. I mean, everyone can think of a show they deem underserving that has won Best Musical. I just found Aida to be something of a somewhat entertaining, though baffling, mess. For example (this has always bothered me), why go through the trouble of employing the bookend device of a museum exhibit only to provide a "flashback" of a story presented in a way that is extremely modern, removing mostly everything resembling ancient Egypt other than minor hints or suggestions? To me, it came across rather ridiculous and silly and I just couldn't take the show seriously. I couldn't figure out what angle they were going for other than giving younger audiences something to drool about as long as they didn't actually think (which Legally Blonde does unapologetically and more successfully, in my opinion). I just felt like I was watching a show in which all the members of the creative staff did their own thing and never met until opening night. There were some fun moments and some pretty moments, but as a whole, it was sort of a patchwork show. Even if Contact were not considered a musical, I would still put Marie Christine in its slot over Aida.

Little Mermaid and YF -- doing more than $1 million weekly, you need to look at things differently

Is Young Frankenstein doing that well? Where are the numbers published?

Updated On: 4/2/08 at 11:13 AM

[Fosse76]

Posted: 4/2/08 at 11:19am

"I remember reading MILLIE recouped something like 85 percent on Broadway, and that the tours were very profitable. I'll bet the B'way production has recouped by now."

What do you mean? Once the Broadway production closes, the investors no longer have a financial interest in the show. And the show closed without recouping. The original producer may or may not receive royalties from other productions, but the initial investors do not.

[jpbran]

Posted: 4/2/08 at 11:38am

"There were some fun moments and some pretty moments, but as a whole, it was sort of a patchwork show."

I think that's a GREAT way to describe Aida. I probably liked it a bit more than you, but that does sum it up pretty well.

[JRybka]

Posted: 4/2/08 at 11:56am

I personally LOVED AIDA and wish it had done better. But then again, I like many types of shows...

[trinaaron]

Posted: 4/2/08 at 11:59am

As an audience member when I think flop I think Carrie, High Fidelity, Big, etc. I'm usually not aware how much a show costs or what the original investment was so that really doesn't enter into it for me personally. However, I think that if a show runs for 2 years and can't make back it's investment it might be time to call in the auditor. (except for Xanadu...that show usually can't fill a 600 seat theater past 60% and yet keeps chugging along...they are even publishing a book!)

Regarding the question, Aida immediately came to mind, and I agree that if it had been nominated it would have won.

[SpellingBeeFan4Ever]

Posted: 4/2/08 at 12:20pm

"LEGALLY BLONDE is still a flop."


How do you know? Has it closed yet?

Updated On: 4/2/08 at 12:20 PM

Posted: 4/2/08 at 12:31pm

"Still" meaning "At this moment" not "Forever onward."