Sweeney Todd: Hero or Villain?- Page 2

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 8:15pm

OS, I tried to say that, but I think you explained it better.

C- I really love that moment in the DVD as well, that face is so perfect, his utter revulsion at not getting to kill again is so perfect.

[GYPSY1527]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 8:17pm

I believe that Sweeney is a man that has been wronged. He committed murderous acts but his intentions were pure. I believe Sweeney was ultimatley righting a wrong and getting revenge on those who had done the wrong. In that sense, Sweeney Todd can be categorized as a anti-hero.

Mrs. Lovett on the other hand in the puppetmaster, leading Sweeney on his strings to her evil plans. Even before we meet them, Lovett has always had a strong affection for Sweeney. Even in the last song when he is weeping over Lucy, she says and I paraphrase "I could be a better wife she was". Even when she admits what she has done, she still beleives it was right. That is a villian in the true sense of the word.

[jasonf]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 8:17pm

Well, depending on how you look at it, ANthony DOES practice deceit in trying to get Johanna out of the asylum...not that this is necessarily EVIL, but if you're going to be absolute about your moral compass, then he wasn't completely honest either...

[ljay889]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 8:20pm

Johanna is a person, she doesn't "belong" to anyone. She should have been allowed to choose for herself from the beginning, but instead she was fought over like a trophy. She was "wronged" far more than Sweeney or the Judge were in having her taken away from them. Anthony is just an innocent bystander in the whole mess.


- You are right, Skittles. That was poorly worded on my behalf. But I do agree with everything you said.

[C is for Company]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 8:24pm

I just think in the spectrum of such crimes, his is possibly so minute that I don't find it anywhere near comparison with the things done by others in this show. Lucy too was rather innocent and caught in a bad spot, even if she did try killing herself. She was placed in such a bad and pitiable spot that was beyond her control. And the Beadle was just an a-hole. He technically didn't really do too many bad things. Except killing the bird! Urgh nothing gets me more than hearing animals maltreated, I wouldn't mind if it was my job to go around with a golf club beating these people to the point of making sure they never so much as walked again. Even Toby, his life was just as bad.
If you break down these points, everyone was just living such tragic lives and what they did they did to better their situation or because they weren't stable. With the exception of the purpetrators obviously like Turpin

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 8:31pm

"Urgh nothing gets me more than hearing animals maltreated, I wouldn't mind if it was my job to go around with a golf club beating these people to the point of making sure they never so much as walked again."

You are aware that this a crime and also against Christian teachings, aren't you?

ljay, glad it was just a misunderstanding. I just couldn't see how anyone could walk away from the show thinking Sweeney and the judge fighting over Johanna was okay.

[Piazzaslight]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 8:34pm

I also believe that Sweeney Todd is nothing more than a man who has been wronged by a man who abuses his power. And that everyone in the show contains flaws. After all, who wouldn't want to get revenge on someone after that perso has wronged them? I certainly would. But I view Sweeney as neither a hero or villian. After all, revenge is a sin according to the Bible, if I'm not mistaken. So either way, he is doing something negative, though you can't bring yourself to place him as a antagnist. So you can look at his character from different views and still see a wronged man and a sinner. In short, he is a normal human being who has been wronged, but is sinning to take it out on a man who abuses his power. I also view the man's plight's as an addiction and obsession. He is doing this sin so much that he forgets that he's harming himslef and others. That's my opinion.

Updated On: 2/5/06 at 08:34 PM

[C is for Company]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 8:39pm

I figured I would be stereotyped as a perfect Christian who did nothing but good and went home with the Bible. I use the religion as guidelines to make myself a better person, I didnt say I was the perfect person.
It also bothers me when people try to imply that I need to function a certain way or be corrected as they see fit.
And yes, I do know that violence is not acceptable not only in one religion, but it should be a globally humane understanding
However you are talking to a person who never once had a moment in their life where they lost themselves and allowed themselves to give in to whatever emotion caught them at a bad time. I feel that I owe it to myself and to the animals at one good moment in my life. Plus the only point I brought up in here was my stance on murder, not on beating others who need to be taught a lesson. Don't assume things. It isn't always the wisest habit to fall into

[jasonf]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 8:50pm

Is Sweeney (and by extension Johanna) still considered "evil" for what he does after Epiphany? Before that, he only wanted to kill one person. He was fixated on revenge, and when that was taken away from him, he snapped. I don't think he can be considered sane through the rest of the show. Mrs. Lovett, then, becomes an opportunist. I don't believe that before Sweeney snapped and the "bright idea just popped into her head" that she would have killed on her own. This doesn't make her any less evil, but it does skew how you view her character.

Sweeney could care less about the meat pies - or about WHO he kills. He thinks EVERYONE is evil after Epiphany and is indiscriminate except for those who will help him get to the judge (ie Mrs. Lovett, Anthony). Once his purpose has been filled, if he hadn't been killed by Toby, I'd almost bet he would have killed himself for lack of purpose.

Updated On: 2/5/06 at 08:50 PM

[jasobres]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 8:53pm

I think he possesses the quality of the anti-hero, just like Leonard Shelby in Memento.

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 9:20pm

Sorry to derail the Sweeney discussion, but I needed to address C is for Company's response to my joke.

Don't assume things?

In my eyes, and what I believe, a Christians eyes, murder is murder no matter how you look at it. She is still guilty as sin at the end of the show. Not saying shes damned to hell for it, especially her mental state at the time and what the circumstances were around it. But still, by the end of the show I believe all but 1 have committed dastardly acts
You claim Christian values to be your guideline for judging the characters in this show- which is a sin, only God can judge others- but now you're saying your don't always follow them because you're not a stereotypical perfect Christian? You can't claim to follow a religion, then say you pick and choose the parts of it that you feel like following- or forcing onto others.

Otherwise, I see it as an offense, but we should have no say in taking life, no matter how cruel the person is. However a life behind bars never hurt anyone who doesn't mind slaughtering mass amounts of people without losing sleep.
My point is, I just can't justify something like that and not feel there was something else to be done
You should take no life, but beating them with a golf club is completely justified in your eyes? Even if you don't beat them to the point of murder, you do it with the intent of irreparably harming them- which according Christian values, is the same thing as murder. No matter how cruel the person is, you should have no say in taking their life. "There are no excuses, it still counts."

However you are talking to a person who never once had a moment in their life where they lost themselves and allowed themselves to give in to whatever emotion caught them at a bad time.
You mean, a moment where you're forced to chose between escaping an abusive person by killing them, or giving in out of the desire to avoid murder? So if Fogg had murdered a puppy first and then Johanna killed him, would that somehow make it better in your eyes?


C is for Company, don't throw out distorted "Christian values" into an argument, contradict yourself 4 posts later, then whine about stereotyping when you're caught. It's not the wisest habit to fall into. Appparently, not much from your religion classes stuck and you're in way over your head.

[jasonf]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 9:23pm

whoa - orangeskittles....

I'm not Christian, so I'm staying away from that one.

[Katurian2]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 9:28pm

He is just someone caught up in a series of events that he can't control. It's all Mrs. Lovett's fault.

Orange- Yes....whoa

Updated On: 2/5/06 at 09:28 PM

[C is for Company]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 9:42pm

Since I will choose a cleaner path and not dismantle your argument for all to see and without further unhinging the discussion of the thread I will say what I must privately

[AnotherDay46]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 9:53pm

jasonf isn't Mrs. Lovett also at odds with the hero? If the hero is Swenny, then by keeping the knowledge she had about Lucy a secret for her own selfish gain, wouldn't that be going against the hero? Because he ultimatly wanted to find his wife. Therefore she can be thought of as a villan as well. Or that is how I see it at least.

[Sumofallthings]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 9:55pm

So if Sweeney is the villain does that make Toby the hero because he kills the villain? I personally think Sweeney is the anti-hero but the hero nonetheless.

[jasonf]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 10:01pm

Anotherday - that argument doesn't work because Sweeney was NEVER looking for his wife. He assumed from what Mrs. Lovett told him that she had died. He wanted the judge, and he wanted Johanna back. Mrs. Lovett helped him in both aspects. Yes, she had that secret for her own selfishness, but that doesn't make her a villain or even really at odds with Sweeney. If he had never found out Lucy lived, Mrs. Lovett's actions would have been completely moot - they were NEVER intended to hurt Sweeney in any way.

[Katurian2]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 10:05pm

Sum- It is a tangled web that the characters of Sweeney weave. Toby is not the anti-villian. I think of him more as the innocent storyteller. He is INSANE. He can't be blamed for killing Sweeney. What would you do if you just saw a ground up person?

[jasonf]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 10:08pm

If Toby's murder of Sweeney is justifiable, then so is EVERY murder in the show. EVERY single murder is a result of madness. NONE of the murders are calculated. The closest you can come to that is Mrs. Lovett's involvement, but she never ACTUALLY killed anyone - she was only an accomplice. So yes, she IS the most evil character in that she's always sane, but I still say she's not the villain.

[Follies]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 10:17pm

Lovett is the true villian of the piece. The difference between her and Sweeney is that while Todd was brought to madness by revenge, Lovett's evil stems from jealousy (Mrs Mooney, Mrs barker) and a lust for money (all of "God, That's Good")

"Evil is here her sir/the stink of evil/from below/from her/She's the devils wife/She's the devils wife/Beware sir/Beware of her" - Beggar Woman

[Katurian2]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 10:20pm

I have the belief that Lovett's actions not only stem from money, but love and obsession with Sweeney as well. Yes, I would say most of the murders in the show were in the smallest way justifiable. Lovett is the only one who had no excuse.

[Follies]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 10:22pm

Anyone who thinks Lovett is not a villian needs to see this show again.

[Katurian2]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 10:24pm

Well yes, the revival. In the original production, partly due to the way the actresses did the part, Mrs. Lovett seemed much less frightening. Patti does the character the way she was written.

[YessicaB]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 10:28pm

To me Sweeney is victim turned villain.
It's a bit like the guy who says he became a pedophile because he was abused as a child. Might have contributed, but it was still him choosing to commit crimes.
Sweeney was wronged in so many ways, but he is still responsible for his further actions (i.e. killing innocent people).

[jasobres]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 10:29pm

Mrs. Lovett is not a villain, she is just a slut.*

*Not an insult, just a fact.

Updated On: 2/5/06 at 10:29 PM