Sweeney Todd: Hero or Villain?- Page 3

[munkustrap178]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 10:33pm

Yes, nearly everyone in the show is flawed - some more than others, including Sweeney himself. That's one of the points of the show - showing how inconsistant and slimy the human race is. And in turn, Sweeney himself becomes a huge hypocrite.

"There's a hole in the world
Like a great black pit
And the vermin of the world
Inhabit it
And its morals aren't worth
What a pig could spit
And it goes by the name of London.

At the top of the hole
Sit the privleged few,
Making mock of the vermin
In the lower zoo,
Turning beauty into filth and greed..."

[Kevinoes]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 10:35pm

In a weird way, he's sort of a Brecht anti-hero. We're torn between opposing him or sympathising with him.

My drama teacher pointed out that in the whole piece, every character is insane. Think about it: even Anthony and Johanna are terribly impuslive.

I think there is no deffinite villain in the piece because of that. I think the ending suggests that we all have the potential of evil, like Sweeney.

God, I love these kind of shows.

[Katurian2]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 10:38pm

Yes, the whole thought of that is summed up in the line:

"To seek revenge may lead to hell, but everyone does it if seldom as well. As Sweeney. As Sweeney Todd."

Yes, every character is a bit crazy. Assassins, anyone?

[YessicaB]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 10:43pm

It's a bit like "Vor Sonnenaufgang" (~before sunrise?), dealing with a family of crazies, where everyone's a bit of a villain (some more than others) as well.

[iluvtheatertrash]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 10:50pm

Mrs. Lovett is the villain, most definately. She's kind of the mastermind of the plot.

[BroadwayChica]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 10:53pm

"I personally believe Anthony to be the only innocent one at the end of the show. They are all murderers, perverts, blackmailers, corrupt people. Even Johanna is a murderer, no matter how justified or necessary."

I disagree with this assesment, and I'll get to that in a second. I'm not going to get into the whole "IS Sweeney a villain or hero" argument. To classify him in such extreme labels is to completely misunderstand the point of the story. Sweeney Todd is neither a hero, nor a villain. He's the show's protagonist, but one can't classify him as ONE thing. He's a complex human being, in a morally ambiguous world.

Now, as for Anthony. I disagree that he's the only innocent in this play. I admit I'm rather biased towards John Doyle's production, but even when I first saw Sweeney Todd, I believed that the only true innocent in the piece is Tobias.

Anthony is, by appearance's sake, an innocent bystander.But he lives according to an ideal of justice and love that is completely incompatible with the real world. It's all hypocritical. He sees Joanna and falls in love with her, without really knowing who she is. He doesn't, in fact, ever tell her his name, until prompted to do so. See, he doesn't really LOVE. He's not really noble, and brave.Anthony lives only by pretense, by unreachable, unrealistic ideals. This becomes clear whe he swears to shoot down 100 jailers if need be to set Johanna free, and then when the moment comes, chickens out. His failure to kill Tobias Fogg prompts Johanna to do so - and even a "justified" death has consequences on a human being. So, in a sense, Anthony is responsible for turning Johanna into a murderer, because he himself, the supposed "hero" is too cowardly to protect the woman he loves.He's a hypocrite because he speaks of bravery for love, but his actions show otherwise. His actions (or rather, inactions) excempt him from innocence.

Tobias, on the other hand, is an innocent, because he's not responsible for his own actions. He's abused by Pirelli, and forced to con people. He's taken in by Mrs Lovett, and unwillingly becomes an accomplice in Sweeney and Lovett's crimes. And then, he is driven completely mad- and it's through madness that he commits murder. No matter what your beliefs are, you cannot fault an insane person's actions. Tobias' crimes (the con, and the murder of Sweeney) are not the result of his actions, but rather, his abuse by the hands of others.

Think about it: Do we ever really care about Anthony? No, we don't. And we're not meant to. Anthony is pompous and artificial. He's naive, comical, and unrealistic. But Tobias finds a way to creep into our hearts, precisely because he stands out as a pure soul in a world so full of corruption. It is Tobias' innocence that makes "Nothing's Gonna Harm You" so heartwrenching. HE is the play's innocent, and HE is Sweeney Todd's most lasting victim. Because his innocence is completely corrupted by the end of the show, through no fault of his own.
Updated On: 2/5/06 at 10:53 PM

[loudasthehelliwant]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 10:58pm

Broadway Chica, that was amazing.

I completely agree with you about Tobias.

[C is for Company]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 10:59pm

That was perhaps the most intellectual assessment I have ever heard regarding the show perhaps. I love how here there is a chance to overturn a persons words using a new logic and make them see something else from it. I loved reading it, thats very insightful. Thats something new from what has happened thus far on the thread for me

[munkustrap178]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 11:03pm

Brava. That was brilliant.

[YessicaB]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 11:05pm

Hey Chica, I think you just scored an A....lol.

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 11:09pm

BroadwayChica, excellent post and very similar to what I was saying earlier.

To the people that say Lovett is "the villain of the piece" the statement is too black and white, there is no one villain, or human failures are the true villain. (But in the classic literary terminology Sweeney Todd is an Anti-Hero (which is by definition the protagaonist) and Judge Turpin the antagonist. Lovett exists in a special category, she is both not the antagonist but her actions are what ultimately destroy the hero.

That is what I was trying to say earlier the show is based opon the scale of our actions, the meditations behind why someone would become crazy enough to do what Sweeney Todd did.

C is for Company, I am sorry you felt attacked for your statements. I do not think it was directed at me, but since I was the one who originally questioned your assesment I felt it necessary to say.

[BroadwayChica]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 11:10pm

Aw, shucks. Thanks. lol

eta: smartpenguin78, I also really enjoyed your posts. We're of a similar mind on this subject.
Updated On: 2/5/06 at 11:10 PM

[BrightEyedInNYC]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 11:10pm

C is for Company~
you said----I precisely remember hearing in religion class "Murderers go to Hell". Immediately I panicked and asked "What if your familys house was being robbed and you had to protect your family?" and she said "There are no excuses, it still counts"

wow...this religion class doesn't know what they're talking about..i'm sorry. the Bible CLEARLY states several times that God sees all sin as equal and all sins can be forgiven if you repent, whether it's murder or stealing a piece of candy from the candy store. if murderers repent and receive Christ as their Savior, they are not going to Hell if they are truly accepting Him and truly asking for forgiveness. They will be in Heaven next to the rest of the Christians because ALL of our sins were covered when Jesus died on the cross....sorry to be so "preachy" but don't let this 2nd grade myth muddy what really is so, if you believe what the Word of God says...
Moses murdered an Egyption in the book of Exodus, but he was forgiven and I'll be danged if he's in Hell. just wanted to throw something out there for you to consider. :)

[jam_man]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 11:11pm

I was ready to accept your thoughts on the non-innocence of Anthony, untill I remembered a line that, when I finally made sence of it, took it to be a comment on both him and Johanna.

Bird Seller: We blinds 'em [the birds], sir. That's what we always do, we blinds 'em, an' not knowin' night from day, they sing an' sing without stopping. Pretty creatures.

However, your argument, Chica, is much more compelling than mine.

As for Toby, I do see him as the most innocent. Even when he kills Sweeney, he does so out of insanity. Yes, Sweeney kills out of insanity as well, but he already set out to do some killing before he goes mad, which I believes happens at the exact moment he yells, "FINISHED" during "Epiphiny." Toby knows "you shouldn't harm nobody."

As for Sweeney as a Hero or Villain, he's neither. He is the protagonist, and you are ment to sypothize(sp?) with him, at least at first, but after "Epiphiny," you're kept at not quite arm's lenth from him, but at a bit of a distance to know what he's doing is, in fact wrong, even if it started from a very justified origin.

This is why I LOVE Sweeney Todd. You can discuss it and pick it apart in the same manner and with the same scrutinay(sp?) you could with a Shakespeare, an Ibsen, or a Greek classic. There are VERY few musicals you can do that with (and most of them are Sondheims, let's be honest). Is it just me, or does Sweeney as a peice get more and more brilliant every day?

[BSoBW3]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 11:16pm

Sorry, the English grammar freak in me is trying to bust out like a baby on its supposed day of birth.

KILL and MURDER are two different things.

Murder is a legal term. Since Sweeney was never really arrested for KILLING anyone, he never murdered them.

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 11:23pm

The definition of murder is not necessarily purely legal, but it is tied to intent.
Murder:
1. To kill (another human) unlawfully.
The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.
2. To kill brutally or inhumanly.
3. To put an end to; destroy: murdered their chances.
4. To spoil by ineptness; mutilate:

5. A flock of crows.

6. Slang. To defeat decisively; trounce.

7. Slang. Something that is very uncomfortable, difficult, or hazardous:

[C is for Company]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 11:24pm

smartpenguin78- Thank you, I appreciate your sincerity and you are right it was not directed at you. I just didn't think it was very fair for me to not only have my personal beliefs questioned, but to have been done so publicly was tasteless and I did not appreciate it. I can handle when people pull that stuff on me, but I was just surprised what was said, thats really the first time here that that actually happened to me on her, I was kind of caught off-guard.

BrightEyedInNYC- Thanks for giving me an alternate view to consider on the matter. I just remember exactly that moment, I never really up until now noticed how it kind of did influence how I saw things really my whole life on that topic. Thanks for actually offering help instead of defaming me, you really did change around what I believed and I honestly appreciate it

Sorry to interrupt the flow of a good discussion

[jam_man]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 11:24pm

And you know, one person that everyone is forgetting, what about Lucy? She may have been a little naive when she fell for the Judge's trap, but her rape drives her to attempt suicide, then her failure to kill herself drives her crazy. If anyone in Sweeney is tragic, it's Lucy.

Wow, I'm glad I'm not a member of the Barker family.

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 11:31pm

Lucy also has the added pain that at the very moment she really sees her husband one last time he cuts her throat, that is a painful end.

Lucy, Tobias, and Johanna all have some measure of culpability but they also each have an extra measure of pathos connected to their fates.

C and BrightEyed- As far as the side discussion, I am a seminary student and I can only add this there is no "answer" religious communities disagree on this matter as much as all others. (which is why I objected to your original statement C, there is no "single" answer on this within the Christian community.)

[BrightEyedInNYC]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 11:39pm

no problem ---C is for company!---

i know how you feel...people on these threads can be brutal. believe me, i just joined yesterday and have already been attacked multiple times for such stupid things that don't matter in the scheme of things. and i'm glad i had a positive influence on your view. it just makes me so upset when people in leading positions, like your old teacher, carelessly say these things without putting any research into it when they don't realize that what they say DOES have a say-so in your beliefs. you're proof of that. argh. haha.
tell your teacher if she believes that, then that means moses is going to hell and if moses is going to hell, then she SURELY is. haha :)
we've got to be carefully taught.
BrightEyedInNYC

BrightEyedInNYC

[C is for Company]

Posted: 2/5/06 at 11:52pm

Come to think of it, I would believe your say over hers. She also told us that there is a higher rate in Jewish suicides than Catholic because we have confessional I believe. Although her statements are coming not really from where they should be, her overall self was very kind, so much I requested her 3 years in a row. She was a kind lady, but imposing views like that can be misleading

[jam_man]

Posted: 2/6/06 at 12:03am

I'm so sorry I have to go to bed, this is a great discussion. Why couldn't it have took place last night? Hope it's still going tomorrow at lunch.

[jasonf]

Posted: 2/6/06 at 7:55am

Broadwaychica - that definitely is an interesting analysis....I think we can split the characters into those that are definitely flawed (Sweeney, Lovett, Turpin, Beadle, Pirelli) and those who are innocents (Toby, Johanna, Lucy). Now, I left out Anthony because now I'm not sure WHERE he goes. I still think of him as innocent in the whole thing - a coward and an idealist, yes, but still innocent.

Isn't there a theory somewhere that the characters represent the seven sins or something like that?

[BroadwayChica]

Posted: 2/6/06 at 8:59am

I agree with you about Lucy and Tobias. However, and I've given this some thought, I don't think Johanna falls into the same category. She doesn't strike me as a complete innocent.

Like I've said, I'm biased towards John Doyle's production, in which almost all characters (save Tobias, and possibly Lucy, to a lesser degree) are shown to have a level of corruption. But I truly believe the text itself allows for this interpretation.

See, Johanna, even though she's a "caged bird" is still very capable of deception. Even though Turpin is presented as an abusive father, he's still an authority figure, and Johanna disobeys him. In Doyle's interpretaion, Johanna sweetly deceives him (one could even say she seduces him) in order to steal his key, which she then gives to Anthony. Even in a more traditional version of the musical, Johanna steals this key, lies to her father, and has secret rendezvous with her lover. In Prince's version, there's a strong sexual implication to Johanna and Anthony's encounters. She plots to run away and marry someone whose name she still doesn't know. I'm not implying that these actions are "evil", or corrupt, but they're hardly innocent.

There's also a reason Johanna is the one who kills Fogg. Notice that she doesn't hesitate to do so. I think we're meant to understand that Johanna has a lot of her father in her. She's a killer. It doesn't really matter whether or not this murder is justified (you could argue either way). We have to keep in mind that this is a 17 year old girl, who kills a man without flinching. In Doyle's version, the murder is in cold blood. She takes a life with her own hands, she stabs him, and his blood gushes out. The paralell with Sweeney Todd is clearer, and I think it's a very telling interpretation(and one I really agree with). It shows Johanna's darker side. Unlike Tobias, or Lucy, Johanna hasn't really been driven mad, despite spening months in an insane asylum. She is, therefore, responsible for her actions. Tobias and Lucy are simply victims, who are completely destroyed, because this world has no place for truly innocent, pure souls. Those who are innocent are inveitably corrupted, and destroyed. And those who appear to be innocent (Johanna and Anthony) are actually shown to be guilty of some level of corruption. Johanna is spared, because through her, the Sweeney Todd bloodline (and thus, the metaphorical horrors of "Sweeney Todd") lives on.

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 2/6/06 at 12:55pm

Chica, once again a fantastic analysis and I agree with you on most points.

The only place that I have a real issue is with the concept that there is something "wrong" with deceiving Turpin to escape, while I agree with the subtle discinctions and sexual ineuendu indicating a loss of innocence. I think disobedience and escaping from tranical authority is a most laudable thing, and having worked extensively with real people who have been in similar situations, I find it very hard to equate ending that horror with any kind of blame.

I agree absolutely that her killing of Fogg (whether in self defense or cold blood) is intended to mirror Sweeney and to indicate that she too has the power and intent to kill (also instilled in her from the same sources, forced seperation and false imprisonment.)