The Book of Mormon to return November 2021 with potential revisions - possible edits?- Page 2

[Owen22]

Posted: 6/20/21 at 7:24am

I think sometimes satire is actually meant to offend. There are extremes surrounding the Ugandans in the show that some might find offensive but the tone of the show SHOULD protect it against any meaningful accusations of racism. But it's a different world than it was 18 months ago. The real loss of nuance we should be worried about is the line between typical comedy and satire being completely misunderstood.

[JGPR2]

Posted: 6/20/21 at 9:06am

"Maybe the solution here is that they "should" write a musical about scientology. "

Starring Tom Cruise and John Travolta ? -lol

[OlBlueEyes]

Posted: 6/20/21 at 9:13am

The show is about the criticism of religion and this song is a perfect illustration of why - there is so much terrible suffering in the world - especially in Africa - that of course it is a meaningful idea to express maybe there isn't a benevolent and all mighty loving god as many religious people would suggest. Stop trying to tell people they shouldn't be able to express this idea. We are meant to be a secular society that can state these ideas.

I have followed no formal religion for many years. But I must disagree.. Freedom of religion is expressly protected by the First Amendment. Most of the early colonists were religious sects and religion was very important to most of the founders of the country. It is equally malicious to ridicule religion as it is race and and it is equally wrong to stereotype by religion as by race. 

To become a civil and more inclusive nation no one should  ridicule anyone's beliefs or practices as long as they do not hurt any others. Since no one knows what the hell we are doing here, anyone's attempt at an explanation is as good as that of anyone else.

I have seen this quaint notion before that religion is responsible for the evil in the world. Only eighty years ago a nation run by leaders that had no use for religion at all carried out the most successful program of genocide in history. Six million Jews, and another million of assorted others.The runner-up in the competition for greatest mass murderer of the West led a nation of atheists. We will never have an accurate count of all the murders for which its leader was responsible, as well aa all those whom he imprisoned in Siberia who mostly never got out alive.

As simple and appealing may be the notion that removing religion from the world would remove the evil from the world, evil will thrive with religion or without it.

If you were looking for a simple change that might bring about a more peaceful world, that might be turning over leadership to women. That might even come close to occurring in the future as women have been far outdistancing men in academic achievement for almost two decades now.

Updated On: 6/20/21 at 09:13 AM

[JGPR2]

Posted: 6/20/21 at 9:26am

"If push comes to shove, I hope the creatives do not budge for one second on the uttering of 'blasphemous curses'. This is 2021 not the Middle Ages - 'blasphemy' is not and should not be a crime or something to censor in a modern secular society. And the whole point of the show is to criticise religion. They might want to move forward on trying to reduce actual or perceived racism in the show - but they cannot budge on the criticism of religion. It's the whole point of the show."

They should not change one damn thing because once they do, it will never be enough. Everybody knows this show by now and if you find it offensive, don't pay your hard earned money to see it.  I am not an actor so I will ask others, do you find it hard to speak words on stage that are totally opposite to your personal beliefs?

[JasonC3]

Posted: 6/20/21 at 9:45am

OlBlueEyes said: "If you were looking for a simple change that might bring about a more peaceful world, that might be turning over leadership to women. That might even come close to occurring in the future as women have been far outdistancing men in academic achievement for almost two decades now."

When you look at leading indicators for countries led by women, the data certainly supports this.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 6/20/21 at 10:29am

@Owen "The real loss of nuance we should be worried about is the line between typical comedy and satire being completely misunderstood." That's true but I really don't think that's a line these writers are going to lose sight of. I think their focus is going to be identifying gratuitous satire. Sharp satire makes its points without providing a license for those of lesser instincts to laugh inappropriately. Playwrights stand in the back of theatres during previews listening not just for the laughs they want but also for the ones they don't. 

@BlueEyes I agree of course that subtracting religion does not subtract evil from the world, but we also cannot lose sight of the terrible evils that are brought about in the name of religion, from (and before) the crusades and the Spanish Inquisition all the way to the (barely ineffective) actions this past week by the SBC and the USCCB. I think you are onto something about putting women in charge, but even there, of course, it is not a cure for evil. Evil is a pandemic that makes Covid look easy.

[OlBlueEyes]

Posted: 6/20/21 at 9:45pm

One reads some pretty humorous stories about religion past.in Barbara Tuchman's book on the  "Calamitous 14th Century." French knights between Crusades were a curse to the local French villages, as the knights easily made the transition from Crusaders to robbers, as they preyed on the villages. It reached the point where the French king made the trip to Rome to consult with the Pope about declaring a new Crusade, as soon as possible, to get the knights back on the road looting foreign countries. It was done.

The knights on the whole lead much less than exemplary lives, and had reason to fear for their immortal souls upon death. This dilemma was resolved by paying a local monastery  to pray for them every morning after death. The prayers of these Holy Ones would save them from damnation.

But many people receive comfort from their religion during their times of greatest trials and I would never deny that to them.

For almost two decades now white and black black high school graduates (but not Hispanic)  have been enrolling in four year colleges at a rate 10 to 11 percent lower than women of their race. Only 65% of the men who enroll graduate with a degree. Over the last ten years that's three million more women than men who have been awarded bachelor's degrees. The benefits of graduation, beyond an important requirement for many jobs, also include becoming more tolerant of other races and more impervious to demagogues. This has gotten little media attention.

I've already gone off topic so enough. But there is actually already a large black middle class according to the Brookings Institution. Instead of getting cops out of inner city, get young black men out of the inner city and into frat parties.

[Owen22]

Posted: 6/20/21 at 10:52pm

HogansHero said: "@Owen "The real loss of nuance we should be worried about is the line between typical comedy and satire being completely misunderstood." That's true but I really don't think that's a linethese writers are going to lose sight of. I think their focus is going to be identifying gratuitous satire. Sharp satire makes its points without providing a license for those of lesser instincts to laugh inappropriately. Playwrights stand in the back of theatres during previews listening not just for the laughs they want but also for the ones they don't.

Oh I wasn't worried about the writers losing that particular nuance. I was talking about the public in general.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 6/21/21 at 12:22am

Owen22 said: "Oh I wasn't worried about the writers losing that particular nuance. I was talking about the public in general."

And now you also don't have to worry that I lost the nuance of your post because I get it now

@OlBlueEyes "One reads some pretty humorous stories about religion past.in Barbara Tuchman's book on the  "Calamitous 14th Century." Have we discussed this book before? The title is A Distant Mirror, one of my favorites. 

Updated On: 6/21/21 at 12:22 AM

[OlBlueEyes]

Posted: 6/21/21 at 2:31am

My mind isn't the steel trap that it used to be, but I remember someone else being a booster of that book, and it must have been you. Anything else of Tuchman's you recommend, besides Guns of August which I've been through three times,(but with a lot of years in-between). I finally decided that World War I was fought because the generals wanted the diversion.

Only in war do they get to try out their new theories and weapons, and receive the public acclaim, and all knew that it would be a short war just like the Franco Prussian War. We really are a stupid species. Getting everyone into the trenches was one matter, but how they could have spent the next 3.5 years taking turns at having their men jump out of the trenches and charge entrenched machine guns until the bodies were three deep.
 

Updated On: 6/21/21 at 02:31 AM

[Lot666]

Posted: 6/21/21 at 8:09am

binau said: "I hope the creatives do not budge for one second on the uttering of 'blasphemous curses'. This is 2021 not the Middle Ages - 'blasphemy' is not and should not be a crime or something to censor in a modern secular society."



 

[HogansHero]

Posted: 6/21/21 at 10:26am

@OlBlueEyes " Anything else of Tuchman's you recommend, besides Guns of August ..."

I like The Proud Tower, which covers the decades preceding WWI. I also liked The March of Folly, which ties into some of the remainder of what you said, highlighting Vietnam among several other "follies" [not to be confused with a certain play of the same name for anyone else still reading here] starting with the decision to let the horse into Troy.

To keep this on topic, I have long thought that elements of several of these books would make good subjects for musicals.
 

Updated On: 6/21/21 at 10:26 AM