The Outsiders Tour Contract - Where is the concern?- Page 3

[mitchern]

Posted: 2/5/25 at 1:18pm

Equity has been going in that direction for years. No protections, all capitulations!

[MezzoDiva47]

Posted: 2/5/25 at 3:44pm

JSquared2 said: "MezzoDiva47 said: "JSquared2 said: "Call_me_jorge said: "The Hell’s Kitchen tour will be going out on a tier 6 tour. A $995 weekly minimum for the same work being down on broadway. That’s a $1,643 pay discrepancy."


Boo. Hoo."

u must b a producer
lol
if u cant put yourself in other ppls shoes and realize how devastating this is then u should go buy a red cap


Please -- enlighten me on what aspect of this contract is "devastating" to anyone?


if devastating is too hyperbolic for u

how about concerning

i was reacting to your flippant and callous response to an issue which negatively affects a large group of ppl

apparently unlike u some ppl have to work for a living

like i said if you cant see how a wage reduced by 60% in the case of a tier 6 tour vs broadway for the same show is problematic then u r lacking something

 

 

[HogansHero]

Posted: 2/5/25 at 8:06pm

@Mezzo, a few passing reactions, to you and others 

1. There is hardly ever a correlation between physical difficulty of a job and pay. The human who comes after everyone goes home and scrubs the restrooms makes far less than Tier 7. The hard truth is that Broadway is what people aspire to because it is the pinnacle. And the ensemble member on Broadway makes many times less than 44% of what the star(s) of their shows makes. This is not unique to actors. Top show business agents start in the mail room. Anyone who starts a career in the theatre expecting to make great money without great (and often futile) effort needs to find another line of work. Sorry. If you want to make a lot of money, look into a career as a quant where Wall Street will pay you almost a half million out of the gate. 

2. Bigger houses do not necessarily translate into better returns. Sometimes higher demand far surpasses greater supply. Producing 101.

3. These AEA members for whom everyone is so eager to speak voted for the current contract. Maybe they were foolish or maybe they understood economics better. A tier 7 tour is STILL much better than a non-union tour (especially under this contracts softer provisions) and again the brutal truth is that that is where these "cheap" tiers would be headed. Is there any show here being discussed as terrific successes that does not also have a much higher paying tour for the A-list cities that have long term engagements? 

@Dan94, I acknowledged I did not have the data. I have no interest in collecting it. I (obviously) found this thread of some interest so I read it hoping to absorb some knowledge. That has been lacking. If I am admonishing anything, it is to encourage people, most of whom seem quite inexperienced about this subject, to spend as much time studying as they do opining. In the real world, making a point without the means to back it up is how things end up being dismissed. I am all for strong advocates among AEA members for the contract provisions that they feel will be better, and for the execution of contracts in a way that fulfills the intent. That demands something more than hyperbole and empty angst.

@mitchurn, re: "Equity has been going in that direction for years. No protections, all capitulations!" Every contract and every elected official is the choice of the members. If it has been going in the wrong direction, the blame goes to those who voted (or failed to). If we have learned only one thing in the last several months is that we have become habituated to being our own worst enemy. How do you overcome that: hard core knowledge.

[MezzoDiva47]

Posted: 2/6/25 at 1:59am

HogansHero said: "@Mezzo, a few passing reactions, to you and others

1. There is hardly evera correlation between physical difficulty of a job and pay. The human who comes after everyone goes home and scrubs the restrooms makes far less than Tier 7. The hard truth is that Broadway is what people aspire to because it is the pinnacle. And the ensemble member on Broadway makes many times less than 44% of what the star(s) of their shows makes. This is not unique to actors. Top show business agents start in the mail room. Anyone who starts a career in the theatre expecting to make great money without great (and often futile) effort needs to find another line of work. Sorry. If you want to make a lot of money, look into a career as a quant where Wall Street will pay you almost a half million out of the gate.

2. Bigger houses do not necessarily translate into better returns. Sometimes higher demand far surpasses greater supply. Producing 101.

3. These AEA members for whom everyone is so eager to speak voted for the current contract. Maybe they were foolish or maybe they understood economics better. A tier 7 tour is STILL much better than a non-union tour (especially under this contracts softer provisions) and again the brutal truth is that that is where these "cheap" tiers would be headed. Is there any show here being discussed as terrific successes that does not also have a much higher paying tour for the A-list cities that have long term engagements?

@HogansHero

thank you for your thoughtful responses

unlike quite a few others on here and out there i understand that money does not grow on trees

i realize this is a commercial business and operating shows costs money

and how quickly the same complainers on here would have a meltdown if they were suddenly told they were no longer going to be receiving a paycheck for their work because hey its not about money

but i do agree with the original argument which started this thread

expecting a show like Hell's Kitchen to do so poorly on the road that it needs to be cut down to tier 6 is pure cynicism on the part of the producers and taking advantage of the contract

producers have a right to do it and the contract allows it but people also have a right to their opinion on this board to express that it sucks and equity needs to grow a pair next time

i do think that some shows which win best musical on broadway are esoteric enough that they may not have the same level of success out in middle America but is The Outsiders really in this category

shows like Annie and Sound of Music make sense for a tier 7 because they have been around forever and are likely to make decent but not boffo sales

and yes tier 7 is still better than a non-eq tour so this is a small victory in an otherwise crappy contract

but the question that still remains unanswered after 50 posts is

if new broadway shows that have never lost a penny in profit and continue to make well over a million every single week aren't able to do better than tier 5 or 6 on tour then what _would_ qualify a show to be tier 2 3 or 4

because right now the answer is almost nothing does and therefore it makes the starting wages of new shows much lower because tours of new broadway shows go directly to tier 5 or lower based on the recent statistics

and while bigger houses outside of new york city do not guarantee higher ticket sales i think you would agree that most tours do as well as if not better than their original broadway counterparts

otherwise why bother touring

producers tour shows to make money and quite often to make back money that was never recouped from the original broadway run

especially since the great majority of these larger houses are part of a subscription based series which locks in a minimal guarantee of ticket sales

so I am not here to advocate that every national tour go out production contract or what is now tier 1

but there is a cynical race to the bottom that mirrors a lot of what is happening everywhere else in this country

HogansHero you have a lot more wisdom and experience than most on this board and have often been the bastion of common sense so i appreciate the engagement

I think aside from blowing off some frustrated steam ppl just want to make sense of what feels like the crappiest option being taken which feeds into the producers being villains trope

 

[HogansHero]

Posted: 2/6/25 at 4:20am

Mezzo, I certainly have no quarrel with advocating for a better, more rational contract, and for better execution of contracts that are in force, if that's the problem. I do wonder where most of the people commenting here are coming from as they do not seem to have a dog in this race, so it is curious to me. I also feel like people are confounding this contract with others and that makes mush of the analysis. I don't know what tours are operating because, at this point, I have no reason too, but I assume this new Tony winner has more than a SETA contract going out.

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 2/6/25 at 9:38am

I didn’t vote on the contract because I didn’t work under any of the tour contracts (the eligibility requirement), but I have many friends who were very unsatisfied with the proposed contract. Some voted against it while others begrudgingly voted for it because they were afraid what a strike and the sudden lack of work would look like, even though they signed off on the strike prior. This was right before the WGA and SAG strikes, so while I do believe the entertainment industry would have rallied behind AEA, it was a scary and unknown situation. (I also imagine many just didn’t read the contract and blindly voted for it.)

I could have dug up more details regarding the contract, but honestly I just didn’t have time and so I let myself spew. I beg forgiveness. But Mezzo is correct to question the tier system. There seems to be no benefit and incentive for producers to go out on a higher-tiered tour, so huge hits in NYC like The Outsiders and Hell’s Kitchen (which got so much free promo on the Grammys this past Sunday) go out on the same tier as Life of Pi and Clue, respectively.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 2/6/25 at 10:48pm

HeyMrMusic said: 

"I could have dugup more details regarding the contract, but honestly I just didn’t have time and so I let myself spew. I beg forgiveness. But Mezzo is correct to question the tier system. There seems to be no benefit and incentive for producers to go out on a higher-tiered tour, so huge hits in NYC likeThe OutsidersandHell’s Kitchen(which got so much free promo on the Grammys this past Sunday) go out on the same tier asLife of PiandClue, respectively."

No one has to apologize for not digging, and not very many people seem to be singing the virtues of the current system. There is a lot I don't understand. There are detailed parameters that either are or are not being engaged properly/as anticipated.  No one has come forward to explain why that is not working, if it isn't. As I keep saying, without some meat on the bones, it is hard to assess. What I keep coming back to is where would things be without this contract, and I think most of us know and acknowledge that things would be much worse. That's why it is intriguing to hear you say that your friends were "unsatisfied with the proposed contract." What did they see as the alternative? They knew a strike had a huge downside, but did they honestly think there was an alternative out there other than sending out a non-union tour? The producers were not going to just waste their Tony award. I just wish someone could help me understand the reasoning. (And I don't mean why folks would not want a better contract. I get that, but on what planet did folks think that was in the cards?